......how many games WOULD THEY HAVE WON AND WHERE WOULD THEY BE IN THE STANDINGS?
This is ridiculous. This isn't a bad team. It's a good team with a bad bullpen.
Printable View
......how many games WOULD THEY HAVE WON AND WHERE WOULD THEY BE IN THE STANDINGS?
This is ridiculous. This isn't a bad team. It's a good team with a bad bullpen.
It all depends on how much offense they would have shown. The offense has been a bit inconsistant. I think they could have been at .500
We've blown 9 in 22 opportunities this year. League average is 8 in 25.
Bullpens around the league are pretty weak, as nate's stat shows. Ours is bad, but not as much worse than the league average as one might think. Last night was lost 100% by our starter. Tonight might be lost by lack of offense and tomorrow by the pen. With this team it is a different problem every night. We are inconsistent, and that is the hallmark of a bad team.
There are actual 3 or 4 teams in the AL with a much worse bullpen (statistically) than us, which shocked me. As bad as our bullpen has pitched, the Detroit Tigers bullpen is more than a half a run per game worse, yet they find themselves in first place. Now that's insane.
It is sad to think about where this team would be with a decent bullpen. But then I started to think about it and really this team might only be 5-7 games better than it is now. So instead of 16 games under .500 they would be 11 games under .500. I have no idea what it is but there is just something about this team that doesn't click this year. They have some talent but they just can't win games. If they pitch, they can't hit; if they hit, they can't pitch; if the starter does well, the bullpen sucks; if the starters suck, the bullpen does well. And if everything aligns, they find some way to screw it up. IMO even if they had a bullpen, they are a losing team anyway..
I doubt that stat takes into account the 7th or the evil 8th innings where the Reds bullpen has really done its damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by nate
Blown opportunities don't tell the whole story, however. It fails to take into account the countless number of games where the Reds were either tied, or only a run or two behind, but the bullpen came in and blew any chance we had of coming back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cincrazy
Exactly. The bullpen has been much worse than the stats say. But some people on here use stats as the end all of all arguments.
By no means was I trying to say the bullpen is some secret strength of the Reds. Just saying that _at least_ 9 games that could've been saved, haven't been.
Of the 42 losses, the starters have lost 26 - 28 (didn't look at two of the games Saarloos started) so the bullpen has lost 14 (which includes the 9 blown saves). So you can pin a little over a quarter of the losses on the bullpen.
Didn't we do this last year?
And the year before?
And...
If my aunt had b@lls she'd be my uncle
I think its a combination of the bad pen and Jerrys goofy lineups
They've also put a few close games out of reach. It's always hard to assign a loss to one component of a team. The bullpen has certainly blown some games in spectacular fashion thus drawing more attention to their contribution to this debacle of a season. There is plenty of blame to go around this year, I personally am most disappointed in the defense. They kick the ball around way tooo much.Quote:
Originally Posted by nate
Narron's lineup's product runs. We're in or near the top 10 in most offensive categories in the NL. Narron's lineups produce the offense needed to win most games but the pitching has wiped it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyB
Reds are 3rd in NL in runs scored and second to last in ERA and 2nd in errors. It is obvious why the reds are the worst team in the NL. We were told this team would win games based on better defense and better pitching. The pitching is worse, the defense no better and now we are left wondering if this team will lose 100 games.
And the talking heads want to kick the offense....Quote:
Originally Posted by NastyBoy
In truth it is the pitching being so bad and these guys being resigned to it that drives them to put the offense under such a microscope. If the pen was even average, they wouldn't be talking about too many strike outs or putting the ball in play more, or my favorite, belittling being the league leaders in homers.
the players are not machines, how do you think they feel when they score two only to see the bullpen cede three, or when they come from behind and the bullpen blows it. There are other factors involved besides the pure stats. Teams with bad bullpens find a way to lose
They dont produce runs when they need them mostQuote:
Originally Posted by durl
The bullpen has struggled but i like what i have seen from Mcbeth so far and i think Coutlangous has not been all that bad either
Maybe. But they _really_ don't _prevent_ runs when they need to most.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyB
Thank you. To blame the Reds' woes on its inability to score runs is like blaming the Bengals' recent woes on its inability to score points. Nevermind the inablity to prevent the other team from scoring, it's all the offense's fault. Especially its team's leader in several offensive categories. :bang:Quote:
Originally Posted by nate
Big run production last night eh?:rolleyes:
If Jerry would have used the same lineup as the previous few games Conine could have been the DH.
.
Reds offense in close and late situations
BA / OBP/SLG/OPS
.200/.266/.306/.572
Opponents
.300/.381./453/.834
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/Statis...getype=batting
Stats are odd check out opponents r vs rbi but show both the offense and pitching are bad.
Reds Innings 7& on
.236/.301/.363/.664
opponents
.274/.353/.408/.761
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/Statis...getype=batting
The Reds also have the worst batting average with RISP and worst ERA with RISP in the NL, they are 3rd in unearned runs. They aren't getting it done "when it counts" on any level. This team is simply not "clutch" as is true of most losing teams.
For the record, starters are now 20-30, bullpen is 8-15. Personally, I think the talent level is improving but the team is young or old at a lot of key positions (especially in the pen). They just don't have guys who are in their "prime" and that will bring inconsistency.
Bad losses
4/9 Diamondbacks rally against Arroyo for 1 each in 6,7 then beat Reds 3-2 with run off Saarlos in 8th http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270409129
4/18 Houston series http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270418117
4/19 Houston again http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270419117
4/25 St. Louis- darn 8th http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270425124
5/3 Houston -darn 8th http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270503118
5/7 Houston- darn 8th http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270507117
5/8 Houston- darn 7th http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270508117
5/13 LA- darn 8th http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270513119
5/22 Nationals- darn 7,8 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270522117
5/25 Pirates- giving up 8 in the 10th is never a good thing http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270525117
6/3 Colorado- You would think an 8-2 lead would be safe http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270603127
6/9 Cleveland- darn 8th and 11th http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270609117
6/14 LAA- darn 7th though inherited runners never help http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270614117
6/20 Oakland- oh well but the pen didn't ph for Hamilton in 9th http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270620111
Pen hurts or starter does it himself
4/8 4-3 after 7 Reds lose to Pirates 6-3
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270408117
4/16 Pen gives up 7 as 4-3 game becomes 10-6 loss http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270416117
4/22 Pen gives up 5 in 9-3 loss to Philly http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270419117
4/26 Lohse blows own 4 run lead, bats go silent http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270426124
5/4 Colorado- Belisle gives up 4-2 lead, Reds lose in extras
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270504117
5/5 Colorado- those 4 runs the pen give up prove to hurt, Reds lose 9-7
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270505117
5/23 Nats http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270523117
5/27 Pirates- Hard to fault the pen when the starter doesn't get an out but 3th in 8 kill a rally http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270527117
6/5 St. Louis- Just 1 in the 9th to lose http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270605124
6/6 st Louis- If you use 2 relievers in an inning, best to do it before the started gives up the tying and go ahead homers http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playby...meId=270606124
6/13 LAA- Angels pull away http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270613117
6/17 Rangers- 4 in the 9th never helps http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270617117
but don't forget the good- a few samples
4/13 ChicagoReds pen hold Cubs scoreless for 5 innings as reds rally to beat Cubs
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270413116
5/15 Weathers, Harang throw 1000 pitches in San Diego http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270515125
5/18 Cleveland 7 2/3 only 2 runs in relief of Lohse http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270518105
5/21 7inn 1 run as Reds rally on Nats http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270521117
I totally agree with you with regards to the bullpen:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=p-azBP1rXmY
Flip the starters record to 30-20, rather than 20-30 you get:
38-35, 3.5 games back
Flip the bullpen's record from 8-15 to 15-8 you get:
35-38, 6.5 games back.
Lament the bullpen all you want, but improvements need to be made on starting, batting, and fielding, and managing to see real improvement. Fixing the bullpen is putting a band aid on a gapping wound.
Arroyo is 2-8. Milton was 0-4. Those 2 along hurt us REALLY bad. Lohse's numbers are very similar to Belisle, but Belisle is 5-5 and Lohse is 3-9.Quote:
Originally Posted by JLB5
Milton is gone (that helps) and Arroyo will get back to form. Harang struggled for awhile but he's doing better. I'm more concerned about middle relief.
But you're right, we have other things that need to improve. Situational hitting, defense.