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Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
Nice article by Michael Grant in the Louisville Courier-Journal:
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"I think I'm ready to play in the big leagues," he said through Bats trainer/interpreter Tomas Vera. "I just have to wait for them to give me the opportunity. I'm a patient person."
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"He's learning a lot," said Power, a former major leaguer. "If you go out there and try and throw 102 mph because you can, you're going to wear yourself down pretty fast. ... His command is getting much better. His understanding of pitching in certain situations is getting much better."
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Edinson Volquez, the Cincinnati Reds ace who is rehabbing with the Bats, has been imparting some veteran wisdom.
"He needs to prepare more before the game," he said. "He's got great stuff. He's still young. He has to attack the zone and be aggressive, because he has a good fastball. He can do whatever he wants."
Chapman is paying attention.
"I'm a person that listens a lot," he said. "Whenever someone gives me good advice, I listen."
http://www.courier-journal.com/artic...f+for+the+Reds
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
I like the fact that Volquez called him out on preparation. If ANY one pitcher knows, it's him. Lack of preparation cost Volquez at least a year or two in the Majors...
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
Personally, I think it's a mistake to put Chapman in the pen. His tendency to be wild at times is a bad thing to have show up if he's called upon to put out a fire. I know it's to fill an immediate need but I just don't think he's the right guy for the job. He may do very well 4 out of 5 innings but then blow up for 3-4 runs in the 5th one.
Bottom line is that he needs more time to develop in whatever role he is in.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
GOYA
Personally, I think it's a mistake to put Chapman in the pen. His tendency to be wild at times is a bad thing to have show up if he's called upon to put out a fire. I know it's to fill an immediate need but I just don't think he's the right guy for the job. He may do very well 4 out of 5 innings but then blow up for 3-4 runs in the 5th one.
Bottom line is that he needs more time to develop in whatever role he is in.
Agree. I've been pounding on the health standpoint and that I think he needs 150 IP in 2010 to be ready for 2011, but additionally, by taking him out of the rotation now, he won't get much chance to improve his secondary stuff.
I'm not a fan of young highly regarded pitchers in winter ball unless they are making up lost time from an injury, but if the Reds call-up Chapman soon and he ends up with around a combined total of 100 IP or so, I hope he goes down and gets 6 or 7 starts in winter ball where he has to work his way through a line-up 3 times. I also hope its early in the winter ball season and he can be shut down around Christmas for a month or so.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
perhaps the plan is to get him the Mike Leake treatment, allow him to get about 140ish innings this season (similar to Leake last year at ASU), then increase it to 170ish next year, then go from there?
How do you get him 140ish innings? Perhaps at some point they plan to cut Leake back to a 5 inning pitcher, and will allow Chapman to pick up 2-3 innings from there depending on the game conditions and where the Reds fall in the penant race. Pick up some additional innings in winter ball as stated, and gear up for next year.
The Reds biggest weakness this season as been the bullpen. Kudos for them for changing courses on their "current" plan in an attempt to win now. There are many theories of pitchers getting hurt when getting overworked. I've yet to read about someone getting hurt from being under-worked. If Chapman can help in the Bullpen this year, and they remain in a playoff chase, then work him into the bullpen this season and figure out next season, next season.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
medford
perhaps the plan is to get him the Mike Leake treatment, allow him to get about 140ish innings this season (similar to Leake last year at ASU), then increase it to 170ish next year, then go from there?
How do you get him 140ish innings? Perhaps at some point they plan to cut Leake back to a 5 inning pitcher, and will allow Chapman to pick up 2-3 innings from there depending on the game conditions and where the Reds fall in the penant race. Pick up some additional innings in winter ball as stated, and gear up for next year.
The Reds biggest weakness this season as been the bullpen. Kudos for them for changing courses on their "current" plan in an attempt to win now. There are many theories of pitchers getting hurt when getting overworked. I've yet to read about someone getting hurt from being under-worked. If Chapman can help in the Bullpen this year, and they remain in a playoff chase, then work him into the bullpen this season and figure out next season, next season.
Underworked in 2010 means overworked in 2011. Innings need to be built from year to year when a kid is that young. If Chapman was 26 or 27 it would be different.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
Perfect for the bullpen. The main reason Chapman is walking so many batters is because of how management has made him work on his secondary pitches.
He will be fine.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
I am fine with having him help out the Reds in the pen, but why begin this process now? I'd like him to keep pitching on regular rest in the rotation through July and into August before beginning this process.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
fearofpopvol1
I am fine with having him help out the Reds in the pen, but why begin this process now? I'd like him to keep pitching on regular rest in the rotation through July and into August before beginning this process.
Agreed. The Reds have a lot of other guys right now and IMO getting Chapman's innings in is more important.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
mth123
Underworked in 2010 means overworked in 2011. Innings need to be built from year to year when a kid is that young. If Chapman was 26 or 27 it would be different.
No, overworked in 2011 only means overworked if he actually gets overworked in 2011. There is nothing that says they have to have Chapman throw 150+ innings next season. They can choose to treat him w/ kid gloves again next year, if it means he can help them win the division out of the Pen this season.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
medford
No, overworked in 2011 only means overworked if he actually gets overworked in 2011. There is nothing that says they have to have Chapman throw 150+ innings next season. They can choose to treat him w/ kid gloves again next year, if it means he can help them win the division out of the Pen this season.
So say he throws 100 innings in 2010, then how many would he throw in 2011? 130? If so, that makes him a swing man who gets 12 starts or so and the rest of the year in the pen. More than that risks injury IMO. Meanwhile, a year of service is burnt. I'm hoping he can be a 180 IP guy who can hold down a rotation spot in 2011. The Reds need him to be that more than they need an extra month of him in the pen at the major league level this year. I'd rather the Reds let him start at AAA in 2010 until August or so to allow him to get his innings in. The Reds have a number of pitchers who will be pushing for time soon. Bray recently, Volquez soon. Bailey maybe. Lincoln maybe. Wood, Maloney etc. The Reds need a solid late inning guy and none of those guys look like that guy (including Chapman at this point) and I'd package a couple for one while keeping Chapman on schedule.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
Well, I agree that I'd prefer Chapman be a 180 inning rotation worthy starter next year and for many to come. However, if he's the difference b/w winning the division or falling a few games short, and that means you have to treat him w/ kid gloves next year, getting him slowly up to 130-150 innings next season, so he can be extended to 180 the year after, then so be it. There is no garuntee that the Reds win anything in 2011. They have a chance at the playoffs this year, and I wouldn't be shy to use Chapmann in a role that can help you accomplish that goal and figure out next year when next year comes. If he's going to work out of the pen, he probably needs some time to get used to working multiple days in a row, 3 outof 4 days, short warm up periods, etc... He can still work on offspeed stuff and breaking balls out of the pen. Sure he won't get to face the same competition 2-3 times thru a lineup, but he can throw nothing but breaking stuff and changeups on monday for 2 innings, come back on wednesday and throwing nothing but heat and changeup for 2 innings, then come back again on saturday throwing nothing but fastballs and sliders. Obviously, that only works in the minors, but at some point, Leake is going to need his innings cut back, perhaps Chapman can work in tandem for 2 innings while Leake goes 5, then Chapman can pick up another 2-3 innings next 4 days. There's more than 1 way to get Chapman his innings.
He only burns an option year next year if they hold him back in AAA to develop more as a starter. They'd still control his rights for what, 6 majore league seasons. the first several will be expensive due to his initial contract, the last 2 will be dependent upon his arbitration worth (which hopefully won't be cheap, ie he'll be worth a large arb. price).
I have no idea how ready he is to help out of the pen, however I do know there has been a lot of stuff thrown at the wall this season out of the pen, and a lot of it hasn't worked. Rhodes has been used way more than I'd like, and Cordero has been used just as much. If Chapman, Massett, Rhodes and Cordero can form a nasty-boys esque back of the pullpen from August thru September, you can turn games into a 6 inning affair, much like the 90 reds. I'm tired of "waiting for next year" Next year may have finally arrived, I'd hate for them to sit around another year because the think "next year is really next year" only to find the wheels fall of of several players and we're looking at another 10 years before we have a winner.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
The chronology of events may be telling. On June 15 Fay reported WJ's willingness to trade or sign a reliever. I'm guessing that WJ had made some inquiries before revealing that he was looking.
Around the same time, Jordan Smith is recalled in a move that surprised many.
Around 20 June, Boxberger relieves in Lynchburg. He pitches well and is advanced to Carolina as a reliever.
Around 23 June Fay reports that Chapman will move to the bullpen.
Around the same time Valiquette is advanced to Louisville, even though his performance at Carolina did not seem to merit it.
I speculate that 1) WJ believes the Reds have a good shot if they address the pen, 2) Inquiries revealed that obtaining a quality bullpen arm would cost far more in talent than the Reds were willing to sacrifice, and 3) that the best course of action was to fill the need from within the organization.
Toward that end he was getting some of the best arms in the organization ready to audition for the ML bullpen.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
GOYA
Personally, I think it's a mistake to put Chapman in the pen. His tendency to be wild at times is a bad thing to have show up if he's called upon to put out a fire. I know it's to fill an immediate need but I just don't think he's the right guy for the job. He may do very well 4 out of 5 innings but then blow up for 3-4 runs in the 5th one.
Bottom line is that he needs more time to develop in whatever role he is in.
I couldn't agree more. His lack of control will be even MORE exaggerated in relief appearances. And the increased pressure isn't exactly a plus either.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
There are many times situations where you have runners on 2nd and 3rd and less than 2 outs. To have a guy like Chapman available would be a real plus. He comes in and throws his 100+ mph fastballs and dares someone to catch up to them. If he walks the first batter, so be it. But, there's a good chance that he K's one of the first two batters. You can then take him out for the next pitcher once there's two outs.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
Kingspoint
There are many times situations where you have runners on 2nd and 3rd and less than 2 outs. To have a guy like Chapman available would be a real plus. He comes in and throws his 100+ mph fastballs and dares someone to catch up to them. If he walks the first batter, so be it. But, there's a good chance that he K's one of the first two batters. You can then take him out for the next pitcher once there's two outs.
So . . . one of the advantages of having Chapman in the bullpen is that he could be pulled early?
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
camisadelgolf
So . . . one of the advantages of having Chapman in the bullpen is that he could be pulled early?
I'm not sure what that means.
I see him as a situational pitcher where he gets used when the team needs a strikeout (or popout). Most teams have a guy like that. We don't.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
GOYA
Arthur Rhodes?
Not Rhodes, because Dusty saves him for the 8th inning (or the inning just prior to Cordero going in the game).
Rhodes isn't available in the situation I'm talking about, which comes in the 5th, 6th and 7th innings.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
Kingspoint
I'm not sure what that means.
I see him as a situational pitcher where he gets used when the team needs a strikeout (or popout). Most teams have a guy like that. We don't.
If Chapman is used like that then I will be severely disappointed. He needs more work than just being tossed into high pressure 1 or 2 out scenarios. That just feels like a recipe for failure (in the short-term, and a set-back in the long term plan of him joining the rotation) for a guy who has only been playing professional ball in the States for less than six months. I envision him as a guy that can go 1 or 2 innings as a bridge between our starters and Rhodes/Cordero in the 8th and 9th. If he won't be used in that capacity then he needs to stay in AAA.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
J.J. Cooper of Baseball America was in attendance for Chapman's relief appearance a couple nights ago. Here are some of his observations:
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"This guy could change the pennant race," a scout said before quickly adding, "if he can throw strikes."
It was worth adding the caveat. The first pitch out of Chapman's hand was a 99 mph strike. He got to 1-2 on Dioner Navarro with an sharp 89 mph slider that would freeze just about any hitter, but then he humped up and overthrew a 103 mph fastball that hit Navarro. That ended up being a snapshot of what Chapman did on Tuesday–he showed lots of velocity and sometimes unhittable stuff, but he also was very prone to losing a pitch every now and then, with painful and sometimes scary results.
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"There are a lot of moving parts," the scout said in explaining why Chapman's control seems to come and go. The scout added that he liked how the 6-foot-4, 185-pound Chapman's delivery from the stretch does a good job of hiding the ball–something that's not easy to do with the lanky body and long arms that help explain Chapman's unrivaled velocity.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/...9221#more-9221
The first quote in the bottom paragraph is one of the biggest reasons I'm so excited about Chapman. Tweaking his mechanics in order to sharpen up his control is fixable. I'm not an expert on mechanics or anything but it seems like most young pitchers struggle with their mechanics early in their career. I have faith that Bryan Price and the Reds will correct that issue.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
Cedric
Perfect for the bullpen. The main reason Chapman is walking so many batters is because of how management has made him work on his secondary pitches.
Yeah. How dare they try and teach the guy to pitch!
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
The guy should be in the major leagues as a starter or not at all at this point. This move irritates me to no end. We're basically saying, "The hell with his development as a starter. Bring him up, let him throw one pitch, and we'll worry about the other stuff later." So stupid.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
That's not what they are saying at all. And there is a long and proud history of starters working into the major leagues out of the bullpen. You have to know that.
Good to great starters of recent vintage who put in bullpen time include Johan Santana, Phil Hughes.
In the Reds own past? Check out Mario Soto's development before he became one of the best starters in baseball. Jose Rijo too.
I guess I don't understand the teeth gnashing over letting Chapman work into major league baseball in the pen.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
RedsFanInBama
Yeah. How dare they try and teach the guy to pitch!
Actually I think it's pretty smart considering the Minor leagues are about developing talent and not winning per se.
Don't assume things.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
membengal
That's not what they are saying at all. And there is a long and proud history of starters working into the major leagues out of the bullpen. You have to know that.
Good to great starters of recent vintage who put in bullpen time include Johan Santana, Phil Hughes.
In the Reds own past? Check out Mario Soto's development before he became one of the best starters in baseball. Jose Rijo too.
I guess I don't understand the teeth gnashing over letting Chapman work into major league baseball in the pen.
"Putting in bullpen time" is way different than being groomed to start - from the bullpen. That's basically what we're going to try to do it sounds like.
I don't see how anyone can think this is going to do anything but hurt Chapman's development as a starter. And for what? Do we really think that Dusty's going to give him the ball in a one-run game and say, "Alright, work on your stuff." No, they're going to use him to blow people away for an inning or two. The change up will go away. The slider will be used very sparingly.
Like I said, I hope it works on all fronts. I just would have preferred to leave Chapman in Louisville for the entire year if need be and have him ready to start in 2011. I'm not sure he's going to be effective enough as a reliever for us to make this move worth it.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
That's how the above pitchers I listed were "groomed to start".
In the pen.
You may not get that, but this is not a new thing.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
membengal
That's how the above pitchers I listed were "groomed to start".
Hughes started nearly 30 games in the major leagues before the Yankees sent him to the bullpen. Not to mention he was used through the minors exclusively as a starter.
I'll concede those other guys, but lets also realize that Soto and Rijo had made way more starts at the AA and AAA level before they went to the majors than Chapman will have. I would argue they were actually groomed to start through that process. And Santana, after pitching with Minnesota for two years out of the pen, was sent back to the minors at the beginning of 2002 to work as a starter. I guess he needed more grooming to make the transition.
Chapman's not ready.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
membengal
Rays: David Price. 2008.
Price didn't quite have the pure stuff Chapman does, but his control was much better (though iffy at the time).
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
I hope it works out as well as Price did. Chapman is obviously every bit as polished as he was as a 22-year-old, so we can hope.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
RedsFanInBama
I hope it works out as well as Price did. Chapman is obviously every bit as polished as he was as a 22-year-old, so we can hope.
No he isn't. David Price knew where he was throwing his offspeed pitches and his fastball, while he couldn't command it, he was able to throw it for strikes more often than not. Chapman doesn't know where his pitches are going. They are just REALLY good.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
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Originally Posted by
dougdirt
No he isn't. David Price knew where he was throwing his offspeed pitches and his fastball, while he couldn't command it, he was able to throw it for strikes more often than not. Chapman doesn't know where his pitches are going. They are just REALLY good.
I know. I'm just saying what most of the board wants to hear. I'm against the Chapman to bullpen move at this point as much as anyone on this board, I promise you.
I should have added a /sarcasm to the end of my post.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
Ban Badler on Chapman:
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Ben Badler: He's never going to have precise command but with his stuff he's not going to need it. I think he figures it out, but I don't think sending him to the bullpen so he can air it out for four or five batters a game in Triple-A does much to teach him command. That's the last thing I'd want him doing right now.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...0/2610375.html
I think he's got a good point. At first, I didn't mind the decision to temporarily move him to the bullpen but now I'd rather they put him back in the rotation and let him work on his command.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
There's no doubt that Chapman needs to work on his command, and giving him innings is the best way of doing that. But what good are the innings if they result in an injury that takes him away from baseball for 9-15 months? Chapman has had a whirlwind year, and he needs to build up arm strength for his future. It's easy to forget, but he's only 22 years old, and most of his peers are still in A-ball. Let him finish the year in the bullpen, and wait until 2012 or 2013 for him to get anywhere near 200 innings in a season.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
I posted this in another thread but it probably fits better in here:
From the Louisville Courier-Journal:
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Aroldis Chapman (6-6) got the victory -- his first in relief -- striking out all four batters he faced. The left-hander threw 14 pitches, 12 for strikes, and hit 102mph.
"His role has changed," Sweet said of the hot prospect. "The handcuffs have been taken off my hands. Before I was restricted on what I could and could not do with him. ... I will use him now in any situation I dictate that will make us a better baseball team. He's happy with that."
http://www.courier-journal.com/artic...gh+Valley++7-3
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
From John Erardi:
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SPEAKING OF THE PEN: Cuban fireballer Aroldis Chapman is close to being ready to be called to the big leagues, said Reds general manager Walt Jocketty.
The Reds have received “very good” reports on him, he said.
“The reports are he’s adapting and feeling more comfortable down there (coming out of the bullpen),” Jocketty said.
It’s just a matter of some refinement for Chapman now – getting 100 percent command and consistency.
The biggest thing for Chapman coming into these pennant-race games is being able to throw strikes.
“His stuff is so good, if he can throw strikes (he’ll get hitters out),” Jocketty said.
“We’ll see how he is in the next couple of weeks.”
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...the-difference
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
id give it another week. 2 at the max. The way hes pitching now he could really help us out. Brays been ok but I think Chapman would be an upgrade. Bray really tested my nerves today walking both lefthanded batters he faced.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
What's the rule regarding players who can be put on a playoff roster? It's been so long, I can't remember.
Do they have to be on the roster before Sep. 1st at some point, or is there no requirement at all?
It seems like there's something.
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Re: Bats' pitcher Chapman could be a relief for the Reds
If walks test your nerves, make sure to have some Valium on hand whenever Chapman is called from the Reds' bullpen.