The Reds are Totally Sucking the Life out of 2008 (Volquez)

Until about a week or so ago, I was really pretty positive about the direction of the organization. I never thought we were in contention for the post-season this year, but I was genuinely excited about the young core, Jocketty, and where this team could be headed as early as 2009 with the right roster tweaks.

Now, I'm beginning to wonder if we're just hopeless.

I am a believer that if you have 2-3 top-notch, top of the rotation starters, that filling in the roster behind them isn't too tough. It's been forever though since the Reds could boast of those starters.

It looked like things were changing this year with Harang, Volquez, and Cueto.

But with each start, they look more pedestrian, and with each start, I become less convinced that they are going to be good enough to lead us into the future.

Volquez was brilliant early in the year--- but that was due in large part to his ability to pitch out of some serious jams. He kept walking guys, but managed to get outs before they crossed the plate. Now those walks and singles are scoring. I am beginning to wonder/worry if his extremely good early results weren't a product of some good luck.

I'm actually a bit less worried about Cueto, but at this point, I certainly don't think we can pencil him in as a sure-fire top line starter.

And who knows if the miles on Harang's arm are catching up to him?

Those three guys are close to 100% the key element to our success in the near future, IMO. If they are really good (which is what we need), then this team could be really good because I trust Jocketty to fill out the roster properly.

But if they are NOT really good, then I don't see what Walt will be able to do to make this team any better than average at best.

As much as we talk about all the changes that need to be made to the roster, I truly believe that the most important component(s) to the Reds becoming a contender is already on the roster.

IMO, two of the three need to be excellent, and then we can afford to have another be simply "solid."

Early in the year, this trio looked very promising...now, not so much.

Walt can wheel and deal all he wants, but in the end, if those three don't come through, none of it will really matter.

It's depressing enough to be 10 games under .500 in early August-- but it's made worse when you see the key to the future getting knocked around.

We already know the 2008 team pretty much stinks. But for awhile I had hope that this team may be laying a solid foundation. But they've really sucked the life out of that hope lately. Sigh.

Meanwhile, Josh Hamilton continues to roll......Sorry, I'm still torn on this deal, and I probably will be for a while

The downside to the internet and boards like RZ is that everything is here and now. I'm not overly concerned. What's happening to Volquez is, IMO, the normal ups and downs many pitchers experience in a long season. Look at Arroyo's downside earlier in the season, but his last six plus starts, he's been much improved. I still believe, even absent a decent fifth starter (and is that an oxymoron?), that this is probably the best starting staff of young pitchers the Reds have had since the late 60's, early 70's. If Arroyo and Harang had been half of what we had hoped for earlier (and Arroyo's coming around), this club would be in a better position. They weren't and we're not.

But keep in mind everything is immediate now as we, mostly strangers with one another, can instantly rehash the pitfalls throughout the day, 24/7. In the past, these discussions happened at the tavern and you only had your buddies there to yap with. And you had a "cooling off" period before sitting down at the bar and analyzing it all. Now it's right here.

No question, the club needs much work, but I'm not greatly concerned with our pitching staff, although a long run of some good pitching wouldn't hurt. I think they're capable of it, but the team very much feels like it's sleepwalking.

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Originally Posted by Matt700wlw

Meanwhile, Josh Hamilton continues to roll......Sorry, I'm still torn on this deal, and I probably will be for a while

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While Volquez has been fine, Hamilton was supposed to be substituted by Bruce. Instead we got a lot of Patterson with some Hopper sprinkled in.
In addition, Volquez's success made Bako our main catcher, instead of just an injury fill in.

Who would have started if no Volquez? Affeldt? Maloney? Justin Lehr? Shearn? The $3 mm used for Patterson could have bought something, I guess.
Who knows, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad.

It's spilt milk, sure...and I'm crying. :cry::cry:

As long as Volquez and Cueto are not hurt I'm not concerned. This is just the effects of a long season on a young pitcher(s). Neither have pitched this much in a season and are wearing down. It really wouldn't hurt if they limited their pitches to around 90 per game for the rest of the season. I'm more concerned about Harang and just hope this isn't nothing serious.

I think this could become a valid concern, but I'm not ready to give up quite yet. Volquez and Cueto are still young guys and are approaching numbers of innings pitched that are very near the most they've thrown in a season. I think fatigue is certainly playing a part, as it's bound to do with young fireballers. The fact that they hopefully won't be pitching winter ball will surely help remedy this next year. Improved defense and a year of experience and learning when to freak out and when not to will surely help too. While 2008 is lost, I'm not ready to give up on 2009 just yet.

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Originally Posted by oneupper

While Volquez has been fine, Hamilton was supposed to be substituted by Bruce. Instead we got a lot of Patterson with some Hopper sprinkled in.

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Jay's all of 21 years old with barely 60 MLB games under his belt, and already we're calling him Norris Hopper and Corey Patterson? If you expected Bruce to come in, hit 30 HRs and OPS .900 as a 21 year old rookie, no wonder you're disappointed.

Would I love to see Hamilton in the Reds lineup? Heck yes. But let's cut out the mind-numbing comps for a moment, please.

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Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

As long as Volquez and Cueto are not hurt I'm not concerned. This is just the effects of a long season on a young pitcher(s).

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What? You mean my expectations of Cueto and Volquez battling for the Cy Young may have been too high? Say it ain't so.

I don't think oneupper meant to say Jay B. has been Hopper and Patterson, but that we expected to see Jay in CF most of the year and instead we got Dusty's toys. I'm with Matt as I have been all along--liking Volquez but thinking Josh was way too much to pay. I wish Wayne had taken another approach to fixing the pitching. Hamilton was the one great inspiration of Krivsky's tenure. I wish he'd have stuck with him. But it's important not to underrate Volquez. He's a very young pitcher; he is in that part of the season where starters hit the wall; that's something they've got to learn to get through. We'll see if he does it. But his being very young, however talented, is also why you don't give a Josh Hamilton up for him.

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Originally Posted by HokieRed

I don't think oneupper meant to say Jay B. has been Hopper and Patterson, but that we expected to see Jay in CF most of the year and instead we got Dusty's toys.

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I'm not trying to defend all of the PAs given to the likes of Hopper and Patterson, but it's not as if Bruce hasn't been playing. The problem is a bench that is a giant pile of suck. Of course, now with Junior gone and the Reds forced to continue putting three guys in the OF, it's pretty much a sure bet that on any given night one of our three outfielders are going to have Reds fans pining for the days of Paul Householder.

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Originally Posted by Matt700wlw

Meanwhile, Josh Hamilton continues to roll......Sorry, I'm still torn on this deal, and I probably will be for a while

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You'll feel better about it if you look past the numbers and blame clubhouse chemistry. ;)

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Originally Posted by Unassisted

You'll feel better about it if you look past the numbers and blame clubhouse chemistry. ;)

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I'll try that :D

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Originally Posted by HokieRed

I don't think oneupper meant to say Jay B. has been Hopper and Patterson, but that we expected to see Jay in CF most of the year and instead we got Dusty's toys.

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Exactly. And that includes Hairston, who's done really well and that scares me too.

from an offensive standpoint the lineup has changed over the last few years from a patient one to a hacking one ... and if you are a hacking one you had better have some high batting average types which the Reds lack.

They just don't get enough guys on base.

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Originally Posted by registerthis

Jay's all of 21 years old with barely 60 MLB games under his belt, and already we're calling him Norris Hopper and Corey Patterson? If you expected Bruce to come in, hit 30 HRs and OPS .900 as a 21 year old rookie, no wonder you're disappointed.
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I agree with your point, but I think many people expected Bruce to do just that. I remember comments about the James projections for Bruce, and how Bruce would replace Hamilton's bat, etc. So I think most people had very unrealistic expectations for this 21 year old.

That is why I was not that critical of the Reds when they started Bruce in AAA and delayed him for Super 2. I admit I changed my tune a little when Bruce got off to his fast start, but in hindsight I think that Wayne made the right call by starting Bruce at AAA.