That's fair as well. It does make your stomach knot up a bit knowing what he has now become, but as I mentioned, it is hard to see him getting to that point as a Red or the Reds cashing him in for a much better haul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kc61
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That's fair as well. It does make your stomach knot up a bit knowing what he has now become, but as I mentioned, it is hard to see him getting to that point as a Red or the Reds cashing him in for a much better haul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kc61
This gets overlooked IMO. O'Brien and Krivsky may have laid the groundwork, but being able to focus all those resoures into a winning ballclub has been the key. While Krivsky forced the issue and traded away 25% of the lineup for bullpen dreck, Jocketty was patient enough to wait for the right moves and has turned a whole bunch of superfluous talent into key pieces like Latos, Marshall, and Hernandez.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdccclxix
I'm just afraid I'm not making this clear so I thought of a simpler way to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaldaniels
On what date did Walt's GM behavior begin to be suspect, and on which date did it end being suspect?
Here's another criteria for evaluating a trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling
If you could go back in time and not make the trade, would you stop it?
I wouldn't. No Rolen means no 2010 division title at bare minimum.
Plus, I think EdE had worn out his welcome long ago. EdE was such a poor defender that even when he was hitting, he was not much of a contributor.
Apparently EdE was very unhappy here.. I am sure a lot of that was due to past history.. yet he still couldn't turn it around when Dusty gave him a fresh start.
Maybe being released by Oakland (?) was his wakeup call that he was not guaranteed a MLB job for life? Hard to speculate, but any how, there's no way I would reverse the Rolen trade if I could time travel .. would you?
I also think Rolen contributed a lot last year after the All Star break when Votto was out of the lineup.. It's true that Frazier and Ludwick were also on fire, but Rolen was big too. Sure, due to health, he wasn't as valuable as he was in 2010, but I was glad to have him on the team last year.
It was Jocketty's lack of work as GM from 2008-2011 that was suspect. The team was basically on autopilot for four seasons. That was the source of angst for so many observers. Other teams were making moves that improved their teams and farm systems, yet the Reds stood pat for season after season. Glaring holes were left unfilled. Upgrades were passed by.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaldaniels
I was not critical of the few moves that Jocketty actually made. I just wanted more of them. I stated it was fair to characterize Jocketty as being "asleep at the switch" as someone else proposed for those four seasons of 2008-2011. He certainly wasn't actively building the team in those years.
People weren't expecting Jocketty to make moves just for the sake of making moves. People expect a good GM to find/create/manufacture ways to improve the team. Other teams found ways to get better. Why couldn't the Reds?
Maybe Jocketty was trying to make deals but failed. Maybe his plan all along was to bide his time until 2012 and then go for it. We don't know for certain, although I am sure that even if the plan was ultimately to target 2012 as the year to compete, couldn't you still make some incremental upgrades here and there along the way? Is it unreasonable to expect a good GM to improve the team on a regular basis?
I consider a baseball season as ending with the World Series. The day after the World Series is the first day of the following season. I consider the post-season moves in 2011 as being preparation for the 2012 season.
Jocketty's moves last season turned out golden. He targeted the right players and found a way to get them. We can quibble and complain that he may have overpaid for them, or at least paid absolute top dollar. But in the end the new players played well and that is the most important thing. The three big off-season moves were the Latos trade, the Marshall trade and the Ludwick signing. All three paid off in spades. The other two big additions to the 2012 Reds were Frazier and Cozart, both of whom were already in the organization before Walt's arrival.
I disagree for two reasons. The Jays punted on Encarnacion after 2010. They got him back, but he was available to every club in the majors. If he had signed with Baltimore and put up the same numbers, we're not having a discussion about who won the trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kc61
Also, Encarnacion had no position with the Reds. He wasn't going to last at 3B and the Reds have that Votto guy at 1B. Had Encarnacion stayed with the Reds, he'd have been waived never to return.
Rolen was one of the best 3Bs in baseball in 2009 (when the Reds almost instantly transformed upon his arrival) and 2010. The Reds won this trade years ago. Rolen delivered, the Jays traded or waived every player they received. EdE's subsequent flourish strikes me as little more than a "good for him" sort of thing. I'm glad he's done well and it's good for the Jays that they had 1B and DH holes for him after his two weeks as A's property. None of that changes that the Reds got an All-Star 3B for two (so far) meh pitchers and a 3B who had to wash out before he found himself.
I have not criticized the Rolen trade, I just said I think it was a wash. It is not a feather in Jocketty's cap. Both good and bad happened as a result of the trade. It is not an example of why Jocketty is a great GM as others have claimed. I really like Scott Rolen and he was a very valuable member of the team who contributed to some very good seasons for the Reds with his play on the field and his leadership by example. On the other hand the Reds paid a lot to acquire him from the Blue Jays. The Reds have also had to pay Rolen almost $30 million in salary since he came here. I don't think they got their money's worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by REDREAD
If I could go back in time I would go back and make sure the Reds front office and coaching staff handled EdE better. He was miscast in his role on the Reds. The Reds failed to properly develop his game. Much of that blame falls on EdE too of course, but given how he has blossomed elsewhere it is a shame that the Reds couldn't help him reach that level here.
In high school I dated the fattest girl in school and she had a nasty personality. When I broke up with her for an attractive senior I felt pretty good about myself. We fulfilled each other's steamy fantasies for years. Even to this day she still has some spunk left in her. Years later at a reunion, the fat girl had gotten very skinny and pretty and was a very successful model. She got a lot of attention from most of the men there, and some even asked me if I had known what she would become later in life would I have ever broken up with her.
No didn't feel bad at all. I dumped her for a better looking girl and got laid all the time. And all the guys she dated up until the reunion broke up with her because they couldn't deal with her crap. And the only reason she got skinny was from anorexia. Not too long after seeing her she got fat again because she couldn't help but go to her old ways of stuffing her face. And once again, she was dumped by her Canadian boyfriend. Yes she had a pretty face for a while but once that was gone everyone remembered how rude and nasty she was. And she can't field a baseball for anything.
Just phenomonal. :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRedLegger
POY candidateQuote:
Originally Posted by MrRedLegger
The Reds brought him all the way through the minors and got modest production from him for three seasons. Until last season, the Jays never got better than modest production from him either. And he'd have never have reached his 2012 level with the Reds because he'd have been blocked by Joey Votto. Encarnacion is effectively done as a 3B. No one has developed his defense and, without it, he'd have been nothing more than a bench player for the Reds.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling
He proved to be something the Reds weren't going to be able to use and then the team moved him for an All-Star 3B who helped turn around years of helpless, hopeless baseball.
Well, I can respect that point on Rolen, even though I don't agree with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling
I see where you are coming from.
IMO, the Reds were more than patient with EdE.. Heck, Walt even gave him a new 2 year deal. (That was a mistake by Walt that is overlooked, imo).. Then Walt realized that EdE was never going to be the solution at 3b and moved on.
Other GMs managers gave EdE plenty of chances too. If EdE is not going to flourish on Dusty, and can't wait to get out of town (based on saying how glad he was traded), I'm not sure the Reds could've done anything else with him.
I have no way to prove this, but I think EdE needed the shock of being almost out of a job to grow up and actually start trying to be a good MLB player. He just seemed to think he was entitled to a starting job, no matter how bad his hitting/fielding were.. The Reds gave EdE 2008 plate appearances over 5 seasons, and got a 793 OPS with horrible defense.... at some point, they just had to cut bait on him..
Exactly, another guy who can claim only to have power when he was batting, couldn't run well, can't field well and was woefully inconsistent while on the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by M2
And frankly the Reds were lucky to get an actual baseball player in return for for this hitter. And to top it off it coincided with the Reds actually starting to play baseball everywhere but in the batters box. He could hit 40 again next year and I wouldn't care
I know it wouldn't have been easy or likely to maximize EdE's talents, but given the fact that he did have tremendous talent lurking inside of him (as evidenced by the monster season he had this year), then it is a shame the Reds didn't harness that talent while they had the chance. He was a player development failure for the organization.Quote:
Originally Posted by REDREAD
EdE's 793 OPS with the Reds was better than Rolen's .771 OPS with the Reds in limited action due to frequent injury. Edwin has an 839 OPS as a Blue Jay. Over that time period EdE has an OPS+ of 124 compared to Rolen's 104. Obviously Rolen's defense and leadership are superior, but given the fact the Reds had to pay Rolen $27 million while the Blue Jays were paying EdE $11 million I don't think the trade was worth it. It certainly wasn't a steal for the Reds as some have characterized it. To me it was a wash.
The most important aspect of a trade is a team's scouting analysis of the players.
Not the public perception. Not historical stats. But a team's own internal analysis of how the player is going to play going forward.
I'm guessing the Reds never thought EE would hit 42 homers and 110 RBIs in a major league season. I think the Reds underestimated EE. So did I, so did most of us.
Yes, at the time it seemed to make sense. Yes, the Blue Jays also gave up on him at one point. Yes, he was waived. Yes, EE can't field and never really fit well with the Reds.
But you just can't ignore what this player has become. His 2012 season exists. It happened. And had the Reds seen his long term potential more clearly, they undoubtedly would have made a different trade. It's inconceivable the Reds thought they were trading a 42 homer guy.
It's no big deal, the Reds got value from the trade, nobody has a crystal ball, it's perfectly understandable. But anyone who thinks you ignore what the player has become is incorrect IMO.