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A Little More From Joey V
If the Reds are going anywhere this year I think we need a little bit more from Votto. His defense this year has been lousy, he seems to make a lot more mental errors than he did in the past and although his BA and OBP are as solid as ever, the clutch hits seem to be few and far between. Here are his percentage of scoring baserunners compared to some other top players.
Votto 38 runs knocked in- out of 301 baserunners (13%)
In 2010 he was 77-391 20%
M Cabrera 68-316 (22%)
C Davis 62-277 (22%)
Goldschmidt 67-290 (23%)
Freeman 65-279 (23%)
Encarnacion 60-290 (21%)
McCutchen 49-279 (18%)
A. Craig 76-306 (25%)
Some Other Reds
Phillips 73-358 (20%)
Bruce 52-337 (15%)
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
He's starting to attack some pitches to RF.....I really like that.
His defense has been pretty bad.
He had two good base running plays tonight.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikemo14
If the Reds are going anywhere this year I think we need a little bit more from Votto. His defense this year has been lousy, he seems to make a lot more mental errors than he did in the past and although his BA and OBP are as solid as ever, the clutch hits seem to be few and far between. Here are his percentage of scoring baserunners compared to some other top players.
Votto 38 runs knocked in- out of 301 baserunners (13%)
In 2010 he was 77-391 20%
M Cabrera 68-316 (22%)
C Davis 62-277 (22%)
Goldschmidt 67-290 (23%)
Freeman 65-279 (23%)
Encarnacion 60-290 (21%)
McCutchen 49-279 (18%)
A. Craig 76-306 (25%)
Some Other Reds
Phillips 73-358 (20%)
Bruce 52-337 (15%)
Look at Phillips and Bruce's # of baserunners....1st and 2nd by a lot and I think you know one of the reasons.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Good point Ironman. Still compare him to Craig at this point and Votto is driving in half of the runs that Craig is.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
I don't think Votto is the issue
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikemo14
Good point Ironman. Still compare him to Craig at this point and Votto is driving in half of the runs that Craig is.
I see both sides of it.
When it comes down to it....I want Votto to try to knock them in.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
I think Votto's swing in the last week has looked as good as it has all season.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
I think you are wrong about this.
As a hitter, Votto ranks #7 in MLB in OPS and #4 in wRC+. As a 1B, he is the #2 overall hitter behind Chris Davis, who is still riding that insane first half.
On D, Votto is just around league average this year at #12, whereas last year he was top-5. So there is perhaps some room for improvement there, at least according to the current metrics.
On the other hand, it seems a bit silly to ask a guy who is the #10 overall player in MLB for more. The only standards Votto may not be living up to are his own lofty ones from 2012 (before he got injured).
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
You might not like the fact that Joey Votto doesn't get RBI, but saying he's not 'clutch' because he hasn't had the same crazy, unsustainable RISP performance as Brandon Phillips is completely inaccurate.
You want to complain about the Reds offense, look at Zack Cozart, Devin Mesoraco and Todd Frazier. That's where the problem lies. Complain that Votto is only hitting .302/.458/.490 with RISP is pretty darn silly.
The real problem is that people don't like their "run producers" walking with runners on base -- as if swing at pitches out of the zone that they would normally lay off would be a better approach.
Code:
Men on Base PA AVG OBP SLG BB% K% wOBA wRC+
Joey Votto 224 .288 .442 .435 21% 20% .374 137
Shin-Soo Choo 158 .267 .449 .371 20% 20% .372 136
Brandon Phillip 250 .316 .378 .460 8% 12% .356 125
Jay Bruce 220 .289 .350 .459 10% 26% .340 114
Xavier Paul 101 .253 .356 .391 13% 23% .325 104
Todd Frazier 184 .234 .342 .364 11% 21% .316 97
Devin Mesoraco 121 .231 .306 .365 11% 17% .282 74
Zack Cozart 192 .192 .214 .305 3% 14% .223 33
RISP PA AVG OBP SLG BB% K% wOBA wRC+
Brandon Phillip 145 .376 .438 .530 10% 11% .399 155
Joey Votto 131 .302 .458 .490 23% 19% .383 144
Shin-Soo Choo 94 .234 .462 .359 23% 20% .372 136
Xavier Paul 66 .255 .379 .473 17% 18% .360 128
Todd Frazier 120 .263 .392 .400 15% 20% .351 122
Jay Bruce 147 .250 .333 .411 12% 30% .309 93
Devin Mesoraco 74 .262 .338 .377 12% 16% .291 80
Zack Cozart 117 .173 .198 .265 4% 15% .199 16
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RedsManRick
You might not like the fact that Joey Votto doesn't get RBI, but saying he's not 'clutch' because he hasn't had the same crazy, unsustainable RISP performance as Brandon Phillips is completely inaccurate.
You want to complain about the Reds offense, look at Zack Cozart, Devin Mesoraco and Todd Frazier. That's where the problem lies. Complain that Votto is only hitting .302/.458/.490 with RISP is pretty darn silly.
The real problem is that people don't like their "run producers" walking with runners on base -- as if swing at pitches out of the zone that they would normally lay off would be a better approach.
Code:
Men on Base PA AVG OBP SLG BB% K% wOBA wRC+
Joey Votto 224 .288 .442 .435 21% 20% .374 137
Shin-Soo Choo 158 .267 .449 .371 20% 20% .372 136
Brandon Phillip 250 .316 .378 .460 8% 12% .356 125
Jay Bruce 220 .289 .350 .459 10% 26% .340 114
Xavier Paul 101 .253 .356 .391 13% 23% .325 104
Todd Frazier 184 .234 .342 .364 11% 21% .316 97
Devin Mesoraco 121 .231 .306 .365 11% 17% .282 74
Zack Cozart 192 .192 .214 .305 3% 14% .223 33
RISP PA AVG OBP SLG BB% K% wOBA wRC+
Brandon Phillip 145 .376 .438 .530 10% 11% .399 155
Joey Votto 131 .302 .458 .490 23% 19% .383 144
Shin-Soo Choo 94 .234 .462 .359 23% 20% .372 136
Xavier Paul 66 .255 .379 .473 17% 18% .360 128
Todd Frazier 120 .263 .392 .400 15% 20% .351 122
Jay Bruce 147 .250 .333 .411 12% 30% .309 93
Devin Mesoraco 74 .262 .338 .377 12% 16% .291 80
Zack Cozart 117 .173 .198 .265 4% 15% .199 16
I'm usually anti-all Votto criticism. But I think you're attacking a point not being made here.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wonderful Monds
I'm usually anti-all Votto criticism. But I think you're attacking a point not being made here.
I'm refuting a point that is very much being made -- that RBI conversion is a useful way for looking a player performance. Yes, Joey Votto could convert more of his RBI opportunities. But suggesting so presumes it's a useful lens.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
It's not Votto's fault that he is pitched around in RBI situations. Though that lofty OBA in those situations is one of the reasons why Phillips and Bruce are among the league leaders in RBI's.
I don't care who drives in the runs, as long as they score. Wanting Votto's to expand the strike zone in a attempt to score more runs will likely have the opposite affect. Votto's strength is taking what pitchers give him. If that's a base on balls, so be it.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Fact: Votto 2nd in OPS in the NL.
Opinion: it's not a him problem, it's a you problem.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
votto trustīs his teammates, he donīt want to make outs => the inning continues and men get on base
if balls are out of the strike zone => donīt hit it... if theres a good pitch to hit, hit it...
heīs been great offensively (I donīt care how many rbi he has)... defensively heīs been not as good as he can
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PuffyPig
It's not Votto's fault that he is pitched around in RBI situations. Though that lofty OBA in those situations is one of the reasons why Phillips and Bruce are among the league leaders in RBI's.
I don't care who drives in the runs, as long as they score. Wanting Votto's to expand the strike zone in a attempt to score more runs will likely have the opposite affect. Votto's strength is taking what pitchers give him. If that's a base on balls, so be it.
I think a big reason Votto isn't driving runs in is the people behind him. BP is having a flukishly good year driving people in but he's also making a boatload of outs with his OBP in the low .300s. And Bruce for all his success this year with extra base hits isn't doing real well with OBP either. You've got about .100 better chance of getting BP or Bruce out compared to Votto.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tomnuetten
votto trustīs his teammates, he donīt want to make outs => the inning continues and men get on base
if balls are out of the strike zone => donīt hit it... if theres a good pitch to hit, hit it...
heīs been great offensively (I donīt care how many rbi he has)... defensively heīs been not as good as he can
Agree; Votto will see less to hit and the best player in MLB history would have taken a walk every single at-bat.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
I think Dusty really needs to sit him once Ludwick comes back so he gets more rest. He often looks drawn and slightly worn out. Occasionally sitting him down the stretch will be important, especially if the division and first wildcard get far out of reach and we maintain a lead on the 2nd wild card.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
I really can't believe people are still bringing RBI's up as a criticism of Joey Votto.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Can I agree with the original poster that if the Reds are gonna make a leap in the standings it's prolly going to be because of a Joey Votto outburst while also not thinking it's an RBI issue?
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
*BaseClogger*
Can I agree with the original poster that if the Reds are gonna make a leap in the standings it's prolly going to be because of a Joey Votto outburst while also not thinking it's an RBI issue?
I don't think it has to be that. Votto is one of a few players in the lineup (Phillips and Frazier) who I think can preform better, as well as LF when Ludwick returns.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CySeymour
I really can't believe people are still bringing RBI's up as a criticism of Joey Votto.
It's a lack of knowledge on how runs are really created.
RBI have been the indicator of "production" for so long that people just don't see how flawed it is.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
*BaseClogger*
Can I agree with the original poster that if the Reds are gonna make a leap in the standings it's prolly going to be because of a Joey Votto outburst while also not thinking it's an RBI issue?
There's only so much Joey can do. Numbers are suppressed this year. There isn't a single NL player with an OPS over 1.000.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
I didnt have any problems with his offense last night. Or rarely ever.
But his defense last night, or lack thereof is what concerns me. The 2 doubles and the triple were all on him. Props to Latos for getting out of those innings without giving up any runs
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
How on earth do you blame three balls hit right on the line on Votto?
The one single between him and Phillips was an inexusable mishap by him though.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
I don't have a problem when players drive in runs.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Pirates have 8 players providing above league average offense.
Cardinals have 7.
Reds have 3.
As long as there are that many holes in offense they are not going to be consistent enough to avoid people complaining about the offense. It is amazing they have scored 3rd most runs in NL as is.
In summary I wouldn't blame or expect more out of one of the only 3 people actually hitting on the team.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
REally? I really didnt expect someone to be okay with his lack of effort on all 3 of those balls. so thats a surprise ...how can you not blame him? A simple fall down would have blocked all 3 of them. Im sorry but when 3 balls go right by you in the same place and you dont dive for 1 of them something isnt right
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
My only criticism of Votto is that once a week or so, he'll vapor lock on defense and look like he's never played the game before. It's like his mind is somewhere else at the moment. I'm pretty sure I can live with that. (It used to happen way more frequently when he first took over the job.)
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coachpipe
REally? I really didnt expect someone to be okay with his lack of effort on all 3 of those balls. so thats a surprise ...how can you not blame him? A simple fall down would have blocked all 3 of them. Im sorry but when 3 balls go right by you in the same place and you dont dive for 1 of them something isnt right
This is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here. I would have to go back and rewatch the doubles but the triple was barely even a fair ball.....and it was Joey's fault for not getting to it? By the time it was to him it was in foul territory by a good bit. He would have almost had to have been playing in foul territory to get to it as it was hit hard. That is an insane argument.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alwaysawarrior
This is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here. I would have to go back and rewatch the doubles but the triple was barely even a fair ball.....and it was Joey's fault for not getting to it? By the time it was to him it was in foul territory by a good bit. He would have almost had to have been playing in foul territory to get to it as it was hit hard. That is an insane argument.
You might want to go back and watch it because all 3 of them his glove was less than a foot away. Its called effort and he didnt put in any..but hey go ahead and be all for mediocrity ...
I love how my opinion becomes an insane argument. I believe he should have gotten to those balls. If you dont thats fine but it doesnt make it insane at all.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RANDY IN INDY
I don't have a problem when players drive in runs.
No one does.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coachpipe
You might want to go back and watch it because all 3 of them his glove was less than a foot away. Its called effort and he didnt put in any..but hey go ahead and be all for mediocrity ...
I love how my opinion becomes an insane argument. I believe he should have gotten to those balls. If you dont thats fine but it doesnt make it insane at all.
Were you doing acid last night?
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
reds44
Were you doing acid last night?
Damn you sir are a moron
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coachpipe
You might want to go back and watch it because all 3 of them his glove was less than a foot away. Its called effort and he didnt put in any..but hey go ahead and be all for mediocrity ...
I love how my opinion becomes an insane argument. I believe he should have gotten to those balls. If you dont thats fine but it doesnt make it insane at all.
Any ball within a foot of your glove you should get to? Nothing is ever hit just out of your reach? This ball was spinning away from line and actually landed foul past the base. I don't know how this one is put on a 1st baseman.
http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=29471091&c_id=mlb
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Votto should have attempted to get those balls..how does that equate to me being on acid
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
f votto would have fallen over he would have stopped that ball..or atleast looked like he was trying for it..Isnt the job of the infielder to do whatever you can to block the ball? sorry we see 2 completely different things..but please continue to tell me how stupid I am for thinking a little more effort would have been nice to see.. If you are okay with him letting the one go by fine...
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RadfordVA
Any ball within a foot of your glove you should get to? Nothing is ever hit just out of your reach? This ball was spinning away from line and actually landed foul past the base. I don't know how this one is put on a 1st baseman.
http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=29471091&c_id=mlb
That was properly scored as a triple.
I sometimes think some posters here think Joey Votto should be like Bugs Bunny in the old cartoon where Bugs plays all nine positions by himself and defeats the "Gashouse Gorillas."
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coachpipe
ha sorry even after watching again and again..if votto would have fallen over he would have stopped that ball..Isnt the job of the infielder to do whatever you can to block the ball? sorry we see 2 completely different things..but please continue to tell me how stupid I am for thinking a little more effort would have been nice to see..
Doing acid doesn't mean you are stupid, Steve Jobs did acid often.
With that said - son, stay off the drugs.
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Re: A Little More From Joey V
I'm fine with Joey's offense this season. But his defense is a legitimate concern/gripe. Is this what we can expect from him defensively moving forward?