Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Henderson, Dimaggio, Williams, Bonds, Cobb.
Fun thread. Sorry I missed round 1.
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Still have to disagree with you. Clemente's career percent stats are aided by the fact that he, tragically, never experienced a major decline phase. Take Rickey's age 36-44 seasons out of the mix and I bet the numbers are more similar in SLG and OPS.
Let's compare their WARs. Clemente's 5 best: 8.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.1 and 7.1. Rickey's 5 best: 10.0, 10.0, 8.6, 7.4, and 7.4. So, Rickey's 3rd best season is better than Clemente's 1st and Rickey's 5th best season is as good or better than all but Clemente's 1st. Rickey's 1st and 2nd best seasons were worth a combined 4.2 wins more than Clemente's.
I know the SB is overrated, but not when a guy steals 1406 bases at over an 80% clip. As Bill James wrote, "If you cut Rickey in half, you'd have 2 HOFers."
Round 2
Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr
Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays
Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron
Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente
Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez
Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams
I think it is easy to look at their career numbers and forget what Williams' stats could have been if it weren't for his service to our country.
Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds
Even before the juice, Bonds was a multiple MVP winner.
Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb
Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Henderson, DiMaggio, Williams, Bonds, Cobb
The only close one is Mays/Mantle. Mantle was the greater peak player, but Mays' career value edge trumps Mantle's peak value edge. That much being said, it's quite close overall.
It's hard to fathom this about a Yankee legend, but IMO, Mantle is underrated by most folks. DiMaggio, OTOH, is vastly overrated (Mantle was the much superior ballplayer).
I couldn't agree more. There seems to be lot of people who look at Mantle and wonder what might have been and frankly I don't understand it. I realize that injuries and alcoholism cut into his production, but for crying out loud he's 12th on the alltime WAR list with a career WAR just north of 120.
If Mantle was lined up vs anyone not named Mays or Ruth (maybe Williams/Aaron just because Aaron was good for so long vs Mantle's shorter shelflife.) that is left then I probably would have but when it comes to this competition to me it should come down to Mays/Ruth/Aaron (Bonds falls earlier because of the PED question). I just feel that Mays was that much better of a player for a longer time than Mantle was, maybe its all the oldtime highlights I see of Mays.
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Still have to disagree with you. Clemente's career percent stats are aided by the fact that he, tragically, never experienced a major decline phase. Take Rickey's age 36-44 seasons out of the mix and I bet the numbers are more similar in SLG and OPS.
Let's compare their WARs. Clemente's 5 best: 8.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.1 and 7.1. Rickey's 5 best: 10.0, 10.0, 8.6, 7.4, and 7.4. So, Rickey's 3rd best season is better than Clemente's 1st and Rickey's 5th best season is as good or better than all but Clemente's 1st. Rickey's 1st and 2nd best seasons were worth a combined 4.2 wins more than Clemente's.
I know the SB is overrated, but not when a guy steals 1406 bases at over an 80% clip. As Bill James wrote, "If you cut Rickey in half, you'd have 2 HOFers."
I think WAR is an overused and somewhat flawed stat. I will never use it to compare two different players from two different era's. There are just too many factors involved, one of which is what would be an "average" player in the 1960's vs. the 1980's. The WAR stat only uses the current model of what an "average" player is. It doesn't account for what an average, replacement player is in the 1960's.
I still think you have to look at each player in context to the era they played. As pointed out before, the 60's was a pitching dominant decade so obviously the offensive numbers wouldn't be as great as they were in the 1980's or even today for that matter.
And as I pointed out, Clemente is easily in the top 5 defensive outfielders the game has ever seen. His dominance at defense along with Clemente's brilliance at the plate makes him a better outfielder in my mind than Ricky.
On a side note, what impresses me from looking at WAR leaders all time, Albert Pujols is already ranked 47th all time in WAR at just age 31. Its going to be interesting to see where he ends up 8-10 years from now on this list.
Ruth: greatest offensive player of all time
Mays: greatest player of all time
Aaron: have to take him over my personal all time favorite Red and player
Clemente: very tough call, Henderson better in many ways, but for those of us who first saw baseball in the 50's Clemente is transcendent, have to see him throw from right field to believe it
DiMaggio: agree that Mantle was better than DiMag but he was better than Manny
Williams: second greatest offensive player ever
Bonds: ?
Cobb: have to go with that .367
Very good stuff ITT, great banter.
Results on Thursday and I'll post round 3 this Friday.
Great Round...Nice job fellas
Round 2 results
Babe Ruth def Ken Griffey Jr 14-1
Willie Mays def Mickey Mantle 14-1
Hank Aaron def Frank Robinson 13-2
Rickey Henderson def Roberto Clemente 8-7
Joe DiMaggio def Manny Ramirez 15-0
Ted Williams def Stan Musial 12-3
Barry Bonds def Mel Ott 12-3
Ty Cobb def Tris Speaker 15-0
Round 3 up Friday