John Erardi: Buzz surrounding Reds comparable to 1992

Nice article from John Erardi on the Reds.

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Much as I liked the '94 team going into the year with a full season of Davey Johnson at the helm and a monster year expected (and received) from slugger Kevin Mitchell, the players' strike derailed it with the Reds in first place after 114 games. I didn't believe in the '95 team quite so much.

I like 1992 as a comparison to this year, because the '92 Reds, two years removed from their world title, realized they couldn't stand pat, given the disaster that was 1991. They traded for pitchers Greg Swindell and Tim Belcher, and leadoff man Bip Roberts. They didn't make the postseason, but they did win 90 games.

And that's the point.

In 1991, the Reds' got their "bump" in attendance following the "the year after 'the year' ," but they didn't know what to do with it.

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http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...omparable-1992

I certainly think it is possible for the Reds to reach 3 million in attendance in the coming years. If the team stays good for several years it will definitely expand the market further and further beyond Cincinnati and add a lot of fans to the bandwagon.

The thing about attendance is that it is not nearly as important as it used to be. In years gone by a large portion of a team's revenue was directly tied to selling tickets to the games. Nowadays teams like the Reds get the vast majority of their revenue from TV contracts and revenue sharing. This trend is accelerating quickly. Selling tickets is still important, but it is no longer an obstacle to being competitive for teams in smaller cities.

That 1992 team....I recall so much from that season. It was my fifth year subscribing to Reds Report...and my excitement of the upcoming season was more than 1987-88, save of course the BRM days.

Sabo and Paul O were coming off very good 1991 years. Bowden was not the GM but very good at picking up ML FA and brought in Scott Bankhead... along with Darnell Coles. They ended up being very good pick ups to help the team.

They just did not have enough offense. Sabo was hurt from the start and barely hit .240 and played less than 100 games. Coles helped offset his O...but not his D. Paul basically played his way out of the Reds....as he did not hit for power or average and frustrated the fans and FO.

In regards to how everyone has been talking about how important the closer's role....is. Dibble and Charlton were Co-Closers...and they blew about 10-12 games between them......notable was the Bobbie Bonilla HR in the bottom of the ninth....after Belcher had pitched a brilliant 8, and did not need to be removed. Along with 2 blown games vs ATL.....and the Billy Hatcher trade to BOS for Tom Bolton..... this team just self destructed at times but still won 90 games. ATL was just too loaded at pitching.

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Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger

That 1992 team....I recall so much from that season. It was my fifth year subscribing to Reds Report...and my excitement of the upcoming season was more than 1987-88, save of course the BRM days.

Sabo and Paul O were coming off very good 1991 years. Bowden was not the GM but very good at picking up ML FA and brought in Scott Bankhead... along with Darnell Coles. They ended up being very good pick ups to help the team.

They just did not have enough offense. Sabo was hurt from the start and barely hit .240 and played less than 100 games. Coles helped offset his O...but not his D. Paul basically played his way out of the Reds....as he did not hit for power or average and frustrated the fans and FO.

In regards to how everyone has been talking about how important the closer's role....is. Dibble and Charlton were Co-Closers...and they blew about 10-12 games between them......notable was the Bobbie Bonilla HR in the bottom of the ninth....after Belcher had pitched a brilliant 8, and did not need to be removed. Along with 2 blown games vs ATL.....and the Billy Hatcher trade to BOS for Tom Bolton..... this team just self destructed at times but still won 90 games. ATL was just too loaded at pitching.

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Do you have the stats on those 10-12 blown games (not just saves)? Don't forget, Marshall and Chapman combined for 9 blown saves last year and threw 20 less innings than Charlton and Dibble did in 92.

edit: I looked it up. Charlton and Dibble combined for 10 blown saves, or 1 more blown save than Marshall/Chapman last year while pitching 20 more innings. They also combined for more saves than Marshall and Chapman (51 vs. 47).

One big difference so far is their play on the field. The 1992 Reds led the major leagues with their Spring Training record:

http://springtrainingmagazine.com/history5.html

This year's team has the worst record in all of Arizona and Florida

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Originally Posted by Sea Ray

One big difference so far is their play on the field. The 1992 Reds led the major leagues with their Spring Training record:

http://springtrainingmagazine.com/history5.html

This year's team has the worst record in all of Arizona and Florida

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I couldn't possibly care less about their spring training record.

Get your work in, don't get hurt. That's a successful spring.

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Originally Posted by scott91575

Do you have the stats on those 10-12 blown games (not just saves)? Don't forget, Marshall and Chapman combined for 9 blown saves last year and threw 20 less innings than Charlton and Dibble did in 92.

edit: I looked it up. Charlton and Dibble combined for 10 blown saves, or 1 more blown save than Marshall/Chapman last year while pitching 20 more innings. They also combined for more saves than Marshall and Chapman (51 vs. 47).

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These were all saves blown in the ninth inning......not the 7th-8th innings....as some of Marshall's were.

These were games going into the Top or bottom of the 9th....and in about 4 cases...with 2-3 run leads. Each time these big leads were blown (Against PITT, at home) against NYM, on the road....it lead to losing streaks. They did not have a good recovery or an ability to it seems..let some of these games go and it lingered. You ended up with a Dibble vs Lou situation by the end of the year.....after they had pretty much blown any chance of winning the division, which was about or around the same time that the Met fiasco happened. Ironically....right after that fight....they went on a 10 game winning streak.

The Offense held back that team....I am not implying that the bullpen did at all. Glenn Braggs was a good 4th OF, not an everyday player.

Also.....Chris Hammond was not a very good 5th starter. Tom Browning pitched badly, started getting better and then broke his leg in a home plate incident at Houston. They had to go and get Bolton after that.

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Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger

These were all saves blown in the ninth inning......not the 7th-8th innings....as some of Marshall's were.

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Yeah, Marshall was 8 of 9 in saves as the actual closer.

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Originally Posted by dougdirt

Yeah, Marshall was 8 of 9 in saves as the actual closer.

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That's factual, but not completely accurate.

While the team's closer, Marshall blew one save, lost a tied game and had to be bailed out twice, giving up two runs with a three run lead, in a game in which Arredondo relieved him and for the save, and giving up one run with a two run lead, in a game in which Ondrusek relieved him for the save. In 15 chances with a lead or a tie, Marshall was successful 73% of the time, 11/15.

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Originally Posted by 757690

That's factual, but not completely accurate.

While the team's closer, Marshall blew one save, lost a tied game and had to be bailed out twice, giving up two runs with a three run lead, in a game in which Arredondo relieved him and for the save, and giving up one run with a two run lead, in a game in which Ondrusek relieved him for the save. In 15 chances with a lead or a tie, Marshall was successful 73% of the time, 11/15.

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Everyone has things like that happen.

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Originally Posted by 757690

That's factual, but not completely accurate.

While the team's closer, Marshall blew one save, lost a tied game and had to be bailed out twice, giving up two runs with a three run lead, in a game in which Arredondo relieved him and for the save, and giving up one run with a two run lead, in a game in which Ondrusek relieved him for the save. In 15 chances with a lead or a tie, Marshall was successful 73% of the time, 11/15.

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If he actually blew the save in the 9th....then he would not be 8 out of 9 in save situations...closing out games.

I was specifically talking about closing game sin the ninth.....originally...in regards to Dibble and Charlton in 1992...and Marshall as well.

I see pitchers being charged with blown saves in the 7th and 8th innings now...even the 6th? I mean...the 8th i can understand....but you are going to charge a pitcher for blowing a save during the 6th and 7th innings as well?

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Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger

If he actually blew the save in the 9th....then he would not be 8 out of 9 in save situations...closing out games.

I was specifically talking about closing game sin the ninth.....originally...in regards to Dibble and Charlton in 1992...and Marshall as well.

I see pitchers being charged with blown saves in the 7th and 8th innings now...even the 6th? I mean...the 8th i can understand....but you are going to charge a pitcher for blowing a save during the 6th and 7th innings as well?

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If the relief pitcher gives up the lead, its a blown save, even if it's the 2nd or 3rd inning.

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Originally Posted by mth123

If the relief pitcher gives up the lead, its a blown save, even if it's the 2nd or 3rd inning.

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I understand it is the rule to give a BS to a pitcher if he blows the game for the starter......no matter what inning....but it cannot be until after the starter is officially the starter of the game and eligible for the win. He cannot get a win until he goes 5 at least.....so the Reliever cannot get a blown save until at least the starter has gone 5. All he could be....if he came in during the 2nd or 3rd is the loser of the game.

Going back to the original point though....I look at blown saves for closers, mainly in the 9th and that is what I vividly remember about 1992. Bankhead was great in the 7th-8th role.....but both Dibble and Charlton also had saves pitching 8th-9th innings as well...as they did not over specialize the bullpens that much yet.

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Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger

I understand it is the rule to give a BS to a pitcher if he blows the game for the starter......no matter what inning....but it cannot be until after the starter is officially the starter of the game and eligible for the win. He cannot get a win until he goes 5 at least.....so the Reliever cannot get a blown save until at least the starter has gone 5. All he could be....if he came in during the 2nd or 3rd is the loser of the game.

Going back to the original point though....I look at blown saves for closers, mainly in the 9th and that is what I vividly remember about 1992. Bankhead was great in the 7th-8th role.....but both Dibble and Charlton also had saves pitching 8th-9th innings as well...as they did not over specialize the bullpens that much yet.

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Yep. I think you're right that it can't be a blown save that early.

I also kind of get your point about blown saves in earlier innings. If the starter can't go at least 7 or 8 and keep the other team away from the soft underbelly of the bullpen, that's on him to some degree.

Back to the subject: 1992 Reds

From SI that year, there was a buzz and that team was knocked down by the growing monster down south

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3624/index.htm

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1. CINCINNATI REDS

From the file of Sentences You Never Thought You'd Hear came one from Reds manager Lou Piniella this spring. After detailing his team's magnificent winter of trading, he said, "The only guy we really wanted but didn't get was Casey Candaele."

Candaele is a nice little utility player for Houston, but we fearlessly predict that the Reds will survive without him. Cincinnati general manager Bob Quinn snagged everyone else he pursued, including pitchers Belcher, Greg Swindell and Scott Ruskin, and outfielders Roberts and Dave Martinez. Quinn called the off-season "a bit of a coup"; Piniella says his team is the most improved in baseball.

"We don't have holes," Piniella said—just before Rob Dibble, Cincy's monster closer, was disabled with tendinitis in his right shoulder. Dibble pooh-poohed the severity of the ailment, but he most likely won't return before May 1. The Reels can weather April without him, but Dibble's 5.13 ERA in the second half of last season coupled with his poor spring is suspicious. Nevertheless, says a National League scout, "that wild man will be throwing 98 and saving a ton of games before long."

If so, the Reds have no holes. Their top four starters—Swindell, Belcher, Tom Browning and Jose Rijo—threw 882 innings last year. All have 20-win stuff. "When I saw who we got in trades, I couldn't believe it," says Rijo. "I said, 'No way, Jose.' " Equally delirious is Swindell: In his six years with the Indians, his winning percentage was .522, while the team's was .432. In 1991 he was burned by the most unearned runs (20) in baseball.

But the Reds' most important winter deal was Myers for Roberts, a lifetime .291 hitter who can play the outfield and the infield, hit leadoff and steal bases. With Roberts at the top of the lineup, No. 3 hitter Barry Larkin won't go 35 straight plate appearances without a runner in scoring position, as he did in '91.

"The [winning] attitude is back because of the trades," says Rijo. "Last year was terrible. No one wanted to come to the stadium. Players were getting here late."

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In '92, Dibble was the closer going into Spring Training. He opened the season on the DL, so Charlton opened the season and spent much of the first half as the closer. Once Dibble returned from the DL, Charlton moved back to a setup role and Dibble got the majority of the chances to close out games.

92 was a really fun year. I remember Opening Day that year. Bip Roberts chirping at Bruce Hurst when he was on base, and Hurst yelling expletives at him from the mound. I've never seen that happen again.

That was the first year Post Eric Davis as well.

That was also the year Atlanta traded for McGriff and signed Maddux. They were just way too good for the Reds to overcome.

The 90's were a pretty good time to be a Reds fan. Competitive teams in 92, 94, 95, and 99, and a Championship in 90. There was no middle of the road, however. Jim Bowden and Marge were a volatile mix.

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Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

I certainly think it is possible for the Reds to reach 3 million in attendance in the coming years. If the team stays good for several years it will definitely expand the market further and further beyond Cincinnati and add a lot of fans to the bandwagon.

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Anything is possible but this isn't very probable.

The '92 Reds were one of many Reds teams from that era that would have made the playoffs under the current format (or even the 1995-2011 format).

1992 - Wild card
1988 - Division title
1987 - Wild card
1986 - Wild card
1985 - Wild card