Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=19277
John Perrotto:
I truly agonized over whether to vote for players connected to PED use, like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. I even considered abstaining from the process, like two long-time baseball-writing colleagues whom I have great respect for, John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer and T.J. Quinn of ESPN
Quote:
So here are the nine players who got my vote:
Jeff Bagwell: I don’t get the steroids talk now that his career is over, because he drew little or no suspicion when he played. Regardless, he’s a Hall of Famer in my book and has been since the day his career ended.
Barry Bonds: Questioning the legitimacy of his home run record is certainly fine and dandy, but he is the greatest player I have seen in my 48 years on Earth, and it was a privilege to cover him for five seasons from 1988-92 when he played for the Pirates.
Roger Clemens: These achievements can’t be misremembered: a record seven Cy Young Awards, seven ERA titles, five strikeouts titles and 11 All-Star Game appearances.
Edgar Martinez: I’ll say it again: designated hitters are people, too, and he was the best one ever with a .312/.418/.515 triple-slash line that was as pretty as his swing.
Rafael Palmeiro: An extremely reliable source—with no ties to Palmeiro—told me an off-the-record story at the Winter Meetings that convinced me that Palmeiro was indeed a clean player and was tricked into using the steroid when he thought he was taking a shot of vitamin B-12 that led to his suspension and end of his career in 2005. Unfortunately, there would be too many legal ramifications to make the story public.
Mike Piazza: Granted, he did have a lot of acne on his back, but he was the greatest offensive catcher ever.
Curt Schilling: Everyone knows he was one of the game’s great post-season pitchers but he was also pretty darned good in the regular season.
Alan Trammell: This is a classic example of why players can stay on the ballot as long as 15 years if they gain at least five percent of the vote. I didn’t vote for him in his first 11 years on the ballot but have changed my mind after considering he played the most difficult position on the diamond (shortstop) and won four Gold Glove and three Silver Sluggers while helping redefine the position with his offensive prowess. Raines fans, there is your hope!
Larry Walker: The critics can say he was a Coors Field creation and too fragile, but I’ll say he had a 141 OPS+ with a triple-slash line of .313/.400/.565 in 8,030 plate appearances
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Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
I have no problem with Barry Bonds getting in, simply because I truly believe he would have been a Hall of Fame player even if he'd never started going on 'roids. Before he got to San Fran and started juicing, he was just a hair behind Griffey for one of the absolute best players in the game. He'd never have broke the home run record or become the super beast into his late 30's that he became, but he'd have been H.O.F. material.
I don't know what to think about Clemens, really. But as much as I have no problem with leaving borderline guys out for the obvious reasons, I don't think Bonds was ever borderline even in spite of his usage.
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Clemens before 2000
Code:
AREER
1876-1999
NEUTRAL WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
NEUTRAL LOSSES vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
GAMES STARTED >= 400
ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE N_W N_L RSAA IP GS
1 Lefty Grove 1.36 3.06 4.42 298 77 668 3940 457
2 Roger Clemens 1.30 3.04 4.34 255 68 547 3462.1 479
3 Greg Maddux 1.15 2.81 3.96 230 54 421 3068.2 432
4 Whitey Ford 1.10 2.74 3.84 214 49 321 3171 438
5 Walter Johnson 1.07 2.17 3.24 470 100 643 5914.2 666
6 Amos Rusie 0.99 3.07 4.06 257 49 370 3769.2 427
7 Carl Hubbell 0.98 2.98 3.96 253 46 355 3591 431
8 Kid Nichols 0.94 2.95 3.89 373 88 678 5057 561
9 Cy Young 0.92 2.63 3.54 533 116 813 7356 815
10 Bob Feller 0.91 3.25 4.16 252 38 279 3828 484
11 Jim Palmer 0.86 2.86 3.72 251 51 314 3948 521
12 Grover C Alexander 0.83 2.56 3.39 374 79 524 5189 599
13 Warren Spahn 0.81 3.08 3.89 353 37 319 5245.2 665
14 Tom Seaver 0.79 2.86 3.66 312 62 404 4782.2 647
15 Christy Mathewson 0.78 2.13 2.91 361 64 405 4780.1 551
16 John Clarkson 0.73 2.81 3.54 323 71 508 4536.1 518
17 Tim Keefe 0.71 2.62 3.34 346 62 377 5052.1 593
18 Don Drysdale 0.70 2.95 3.65 219 35 229 3432 465
19 Billy Pierce 0.68 3.27 3.95 221 25 224 3305 432
20 Ted Lyons 0.68 3.67 4.34 284 27 286 4161.2 484
Then after
Code:
CAREER
1876-2012
NEUTRAL WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
NEUTRAL LOSSES vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
GAMES STARTED >= 400
ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE N_W N_L RSAA IP GS
1 Pedro Martinez 1.52 2.93 4.45 220 60 496 2827.1 409
2 Lefty Grove 1.36 3.06 4.42 298 77 668 3940 457
3 Roger Clemens 1.26 3.12 4.38 355 93 732 4916.2 707
4 Whitey Ford 1.10 2.74 3.84 214 49 321 3171 438
5 Walter Johnson 1.07 2.17 3.24 470 100 643 5914.2 666
6 Randy Johnson 1.06 3.29 4.36 294 57 527 4135.1 603
7 Kevin Brown 1.03 3.28 4.30 218 45 304 3256.1 476
8 Amos Rusie 0.99 3.07 4.06 257 49 370 3769.2 427
9 Carl Hubbell 0.98 2.98 3.96 253 46 355 3591 431
10 Tim Hudson 0.97 3.42 4.39 184 34 271 2682.1 405
11 Greg Maddux 0.96 3.16 4.11 363 61 552 5008.1 740
12 Kid Nichols 0.94 2.95 3.89 373 88 678 5057 561
13 Cy Young 0.92 2.63 3.54 533 116 813 7356 815
14 Bob Feller 0.91 3.25 4.16 252 38 279 3828 484
15 Mike Mussina 0.88 3.68 4.56 251 27 326 3562.2 536
16 Jim Palmer 0.86 2.86 3.72 251 51 314 3948 521
17 Grover C Alexander 0.83 2.56 3.39 374 79 524 5189 599
18 Warren Spahn 0.81 3.08 3.89 353 37 319 5245.2 665
19 Curt Schilling 0.80 3.46 4.26 220 40 346 3261 436
20 Tom Seaver 0.79 2.86 3.66 312 62 404 4782.2 647
21 Christy Mathewson 0.78 2.13 2.91 361 64 405 4780.1 551
22 John Smoltz 0.76 3.33 4.09 220 46 312 3473 481
23 David Cone 0.76 3.46 4.23 189 31 228 2898.2 419
24 Kevin Appier 0.76 3.74 4.50 176 16 225 2595.1 402
25 John Clarkson 0.73 2.81 3.54 323 71 508 4536.1 518
26 Tim Keefe 0.71 2.62 3.34 346 62 377 5052.1 593
27 Andy Pettitte 0.70 3.86 4.55 224 13 232 3130.2 491
28 Don Drysdale 0.70 2.95 3.65 219 35 229 3432 465
29 Billy Pierce 0.68 3.27 3.95 221 25 224 3305 432
30 Ted Lyons 0.68 3.67 4.34 284 27 286 4161.2 484
31 Bob Gibson 0.67 2.91 3.59 264 55 350 3885 482
32 Juan Marichal 0.67 2.89 3.56 228 38 252 3506 457
33 Red Faber 0.64 3.15 3.79 269 29 250 4087 484
34 Dave Stieb 0.63 3.44 4.06 185 34 236 2895.1 412
35 Tom Glavine 0.59 3.54 4.13 294 33 305 4413.1 682
36 Old Hoss Radbourn 0.59 2.67 3.26 300 49 254 4535.1 503
37 Chuck Finley 0.58 3.85 4.43 213 19 203 3197.1 467
38 Red Ruffing 0.56 3.80 4.36 273 18 170 4342 536
39 Gaylord Perry 0.53 3.11 3.63 336 55 317 5350.1 690
40 Eddie Plank 0.53 2.35 2.88 311 39 278 4495.2 529
41 Nolan Ryan 0.53 3.19 3.72 336 20 205 5386 773
42 Orel Hershiser 0.52 3.48 4.00 197 17 124 3130.1 466
43 Robin Roberts 0.51 3.40 3.91 296 26 220 4689 609
44 Will White 0.50 2.28 2.78 234 35 189 3542.2 401
45 Bert Blyleven 0.50 3.31 3.81 313 53 344 4970 685
46 Mel Harder 0.50 3.80 4.30 226 8 176 3425.2 433
47 Waite Hoyt 0.50 3.59 4.08 235 26 187 3763 422
48 Eppa Rixey 0.50 3.15 3.64 291 23 217 4494 552
49 Freddie Fitzsimmons 0.48 3.51 3.99 201 18 145 3225 426
50 Tony Mullane 0.48 3.05 3.53 289 38 241 4531.1 504
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brutus
I have no problem with Barry Bonds getting in, simply because I truly believe he would have been a Hall of Fame player even if he'd never started going on 'roids. Before he got to San Fran and started juicing, he was just a hair behind Griffey for one of the absolute best players in the game. He'd never have broke the home run record or become the super beast into his late 30's that he became, but he'd have been H.O.F. material.
I don't know what to think about Clemens, really. But as much as I have no problem with leaving borderline guys out for the obvious reasons, I don't think Bonds was ever borderline even in spite of his usage.
I have a big problem with it.
He had 2/3 of his ABs in SF, 7 years in Pittsburgh, 15 in SF. He had just started hitting his prime when he left for the West Coast. I think you can infer the beginning of his PEDs usage as sometime once he went to SF, but I think it is fair to question any of his production, not just when his head got big. I'm not saying that is what you are using to mark when he started, but I think that is the common conception, and it begs the question regarding when he did actually start. Only God and Barry know.
I think he built his HOF credentials primarily in SF, where all of his production can be considered tainted, and therefore he should not be in the HOF. Plus, he's the poster child for the steroid scandal the same as Shoeless Joe and Pete are for gambling scandals.
If they let Bonds in, then the steroid impact on a career should not be considered for anyone.
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Quote:
Originally Posted by
traderumor
I have a big problem with it.
He had 2/3 of his ABs in SF, 7 years in Pittsburgh, 15 in SF. He had just started hitting his prime when he left for the West Coast. I think you can infer the beginning of his PEDs usage as sometime once he went to SF, but I think it is fair to question any of his production, not just when his head got big. I'm not saying that is what you are using to mark when he started, but I think that is the common conception, and it begs the question regarding when he did actually start. Only God and Barry know.
I think he built his HOF credentials primarily in SF, where all of his production can be considered tainted, and therefore he should not be in the HOF. Plus, he's the poster child for the steroid scandal the same as Shoeless Joe and Pete are for gambling scandals.
If they let Bonds in, then the steroid impact on a career should not be considered for anyone.
Only one major leaguer had more WAR between 1986-1992 (the Pirates years) than Bonds. His name was Roger Clemens. As a Pirate, Bonds won 2 MVP awards while finishing second in another year. He won 3 gold gloves and 3 silver slugger awards as well. In other words, as a Pirate, Bonds not only was considered the best player at his position, he was widely considered the best player in the league. What's more, this all occurred before his age 28 season.
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Quote:
Originally Posted by
traderumor
I have a big problem with it.
He had 2/3 of his ABs in SF, 7 years in Pittsburgh, 15 in SF. He had just started hitting his prime when he left for the West Coast. I think you can infer the beginning of his PEDs usage as sometime once he went to SF, but I think it is fair to question any of his production, not just when his head got big. I'm not saying that is what you are using to mark when he started, but I think that is the common conception, and it begs the question regarding when he did actually start. Only God and Barry know.
I think he built his HOF credentials primarily in SF, where all of his production can be considered tainted, and therefore he should not be in the HOF. Plus, he's the poster child for the steroid scandal the same as Shoeless Joe and Pete are for gambling scandals.
If they let Bonds in, then the steroid impact on a career should not be considered for anyone.
No one except Bonds knows for sure, but others have said that he started using after McGwire and Sosa broke the HR record on PED's. His use was a direct reaction to it. And his numbers suggest that. He actually started to decline a bit in 1999, then saw drastic improvements in 2000-04.
From 1986-1998, Bonds had 445 HR's, 1299 RBI's and this slashline: .288/.409/559/968 163 OPS+ 3 MVP's.
He retires after that, he's a HOF'er, imo.
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
WOY, I think that 2nd Clemens chart is inaccurate, looks to be his entire career.
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Quote:
Originally Posted by
edabbs44
WOY, I think that 2nd Clemens chart is inaccurate, looks to be his entire career.
Yes it is, here's the 2000-2012
Code:
CAREER
2000-2012
NEUTRAL WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
NEUTRAL LOSSES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
GAMES STARTED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE N_W N_L RSAA IP GS
1 Pedro Martinez 1.50 3.01 4.51 110 52 248 1468 227
2 Johan Santana 1.20 3.20 4.40 139 78 253 2025.2 284
3 Roger Clemens 1.15 3.34 4.49 100 57 185 1454.1 228
4 Felix Hernandez 1.09 3.22 4.30 105 69 145 1620.1 238
5 Brandon Webb 1.08 3.27 4.35 99 50 199 1319.2 198
6 Roy Halladay 1.08 3.28 4.36 180 103 313 2524 357
7 John Smoltz 1.06 3.28 4.35 61 37 124 1058.2 125
8 Jered Weaver 1.05 3.24 4.29 95 59 133 1320.1 207
9 Adam Wainwright 1.04 3.15 4.19 80 48 112 1073 151
10 Randy Johnson 1.03 3.34 4.36 139 82 250 1885.1 281
11 Roy Oswalt 0.96 3.28 4.24 161 98 238 2213 335
12 Tim Hudson 0.93 3.43 4.36 175 113 249 2546 384
13 Justin Verlander 0.90 3.40 4.30 117 72 169 1553.2 232
14 Matt Cain 0.89 3.27 4.17 95 68 127 1536.2 235
15 Curt Schilling 0.89 3.54 4.43 111 69 200 1569.1 221
16 C.C. Sabathia 0.88 3.50 4.38 176 117 253 2564.1 383
17 Cole Hamels 0.81 3.34 4.15 91 60 130 1376.2 211
18 Jake Peavy 0.81 3.46 4.27 122 91 118 1800.1 282
19 Tim Lincecum 0.80 3.31 4.11 79 56 87 1214 188
20 Chris Carpenter 0.70 3.59 4.29 114 78 134 1813 271
21 Cliff Lee 0.69 3.59 4.28 117 86 121 1852.2 280
22 Jason Schmidt 0.69 3.63 4.32 81 62 86 1260.1 197
23 Mike Mussina 0.68 3.87 4.54 125 96 119 1790.2 282
24 Greg Maddux 0.66 3.70 4.36 133 102 131 1939.2 308
25 Andy Pettitte 0.63 3.82 4.45 151 109 154 2086.1 333
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jojo
Only one major leaguer had more WAR between 1986-1992 (the Pirates years) than Bonds. His name was Roger Clemens. As a Pirate, Bonds won 2 MVP awards while finishing second in another year. He won 3 gold gloves and 3 silver slugger awards as well. In other words, as a Pirate, Bonds not only was considered the best player at his position, he was widely considered the best player in the league. What's more, this all occurred before his age 28 season.
Which is a great start to a career, but certainly doesn't qualify him for the HOF. By that logic, Albert Belle and dozens of others were on a HOF career track. Baseball-ref similarity scores (since you threw out WAR, I'll use something dubious for evidence as well) at that age is Greg Luzinski, hardly a HOF candidate. His exalted status was accomplished in SF, with magic beans that really worked. It will really make the HOF a sham if he is voted in.
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Vote "present" like they do in Congress :)
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
I suppose a lot depends on whether a player's character is going to be considered in the HOF vote. If you're going to let Bonds and Clemens in, you might as well let Pete Rose in as well.
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmarilloRed
I suppose a lot depends on whether a player's character is going to be considered in the HOF vote. If you're going to let Bonds and Clemens in, you might as well let Pete Rose in as well.
And on his plaque I'd like them to post Rule 21
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Quote:
Originally Posted by
traderumor
Which is a great start to a career, but certainly doesn't qualify him for the HOF. By that logic, Albert Belle and dozens of others were on a HOF career track. Baseball-ref similarity scores (since you threw out WAR, I'll use something dubious for evidence as well) at that age is Greg Luzinski, hardly a HOF candidate. His exalted status was accomplished in SF, with magic beans that really worked. It will really make the HOF a sham if he is voted in.
Simply assuming a normal career trajectory after Pittsburgh puts him in the HOF.
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jojo
Simply assuming a normal career trajectory after Pittsburgh puts him in the HOF.
Projecting him after his first four years (1986-89) had him as "good" not great. We can all play this game.
Who knows when he started juicing? There is nothing normal about Barry Bonds' baseball career and stats. He might as well have been an alien robot.
Canseco was on the juice since the mid-80s. This speculation that Bonds only took steroids in his later years, and that he was HOF-calibre without them, is just that - speculation. When I joined this board, a significant portion of posters were in denial of him EVER using.
He's tainted, grimy as dirt, covered in crap. It's pointless to try to figure out what might of been, since HE HIMSELF made it impossible.
He's a freak, a joke, an asterisk, a point so far off the curve it can only be an error. There's no projecting that and no point in trying.
Bonds equals steroids. One doesn't exist without the other.
Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oneupper
Projecting him after his first four years (1986-89) had him as "good" not great. We can all play this game.
Who knows when he started juicing? There is nothing normal about Barry Bonds' baseball career and stats. He might as well have been an alien robot.
Canseco was on the juice since the mid-80s. This speculation that Bonds only took steroids in his later years, and that he was HOF-calibre without them, is just that - speculation. When I joined this board, a significant portion of posters were in denial of him EVER using.
He's tainted, grimy as dirt, covered in crap. It's pointless to try to figure out what might of been, since HE HIMSELF made it impossible.
He's a freak, a joke, an asterisk, a point so far off the curve it can only be an error. There's no projecting that and no point in trying.
Bonds equals steroids. One doesn't exist without the other.
Nah he's a great player
This is really who the above statement is about
http://gossipextra.com/wp-content/up...o-steroids.jpg