Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
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Originally Posted by
Falls City Beer
12/11 Cincinnati Reds acquired LHP Sean Marshall from the Chicago Cubs for LHP Travis Wood, outfielder Dave Sappelt and nonroster second baseman Ronald Torreyes.
Sean Marshall... blockbuster? What? Sean Marshall is a quality set-up man. Not exactly a team altering kind of trade.
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12/23/11 Washington Nationals acquired LHP Gio Gonzalez and nonroster RHP Robert Gilliam from the Oakland Athletics for catcher Derek Norris, nonroster RHP A.J. Cole, RHP Brad Peacock and LHP Tom Milone.
Big trade for sure.
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12/11 Oakland Athletics traded RHP Andrew Bailey and RF Ryan Sweeney to Boston Red Sox for RF Josh Reddick, 1B Miles Head and RHP Raul Alcantara.
A closer and middling platoon player... hardly a "blockbuster".
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2/31/11 San Diego Padres acquired outfielder Carlos Quentin from the Chicago White Sox for RHP Simon Castro and LHP Pedro Hernandez.
Quentin's star had long fallen. This was a reclamation project move. Probably no more significance than the "Ludwick blockbuster free agent signing".
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11/07/11 San Francisco Giants acquired outfielder Melky Cabrera from the Kansas City Royals for LHP Jonathan Sanchez and nonroster LHP Ryan Verdugo.
Melky was a pretty good, not elite starting outfielder for the Royals when traded. If you thought that was a blockbuster you must have been foaming at the mouth when Jocketty announced the Hanigan deal.
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12/11 Arizona Diamondbacks acquired RHP Trevor Cahill, LHP Craig Breslow and cash from the Oakland Athletics for RHP Jarrod Parker, RHP Ryan Cook and outfielder Collin Cowgill.
Cool.
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12/17/11 San Diego Padres acquired OF Yonder Alonso, nonroster RHP Brad Boxberger, catcher Yasmani Grandal and RHP Edinson Volquez from the Cincinnati Reds for RHP Mat Latos.
Cool
I really don't see a huge difference between your's and Beni's list. I think you made up an agenda for some reason about no large trades being possible without really having any evidence and probably assumed nobody would call you on it, and when they did you've tried to cobble together some evidence that isn't really there to fit your preconceived agenda.
It was a good try, but I don't think anyone's really buying it. A big trade might be in store. It also might not be. I think you are generally right that most of the heavy lifting has been done by GM's at this point, but it certainly doesn't close the door. Braveszone might have thought the same thing when the Upton talks cooled down only to see the trade happen a month after Christmas. I'm not holding my breath, but if a trade doesn't go down I think it has less to do about the date on the calendar as much as it does Jocketty not finding the fit he likes, or the Reds being stuck a bit between "win-now" and still being a pretty budget conscious team.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
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Originally Posted by
nate1213
Anyone see on twitter that Mark Sheldon and Lance McAlister said Jose Bautista and his agent both started following them?
Joey Bats has been following me since October.
He's going to be traded to RaisorZone!
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrick Bateman
Sean Marshall... blockbuster? What? Sean Marshall is a quality set-up man. Not exactly a team altering kind of trade.
Big trade for sure.
A closer and middling platoon player... hardly a "blockbuster".
Quentin's star had long fallen. This was a reclamation project move. Probably no more significance than the "Ludwick blockbuster free agent signing".
Melky was a pretty good, not elite starting outfielder for the Royals when traded. If you thought that was a blockbuster you must have been foaming at the mouth when Jocketty announced the Hanigan deal.
Cool.
Cool
I really don't see a huge difference between your's and Beni's list. I think you made up an agenda for some reason about no large trades being possible without really having any evidence and probably assumed nobody would call you on it, and when they did you've tried to cobble together some evidence that isn't really there to fit your preconceived agenda.
It was a good try, but I don't think anyone's really buying it. A big trade might be in store. It also might not be. I think you are generally right that most of the heavy lifting has been done by GM's at this point, but it certainly doesn't close the door. Braveszone might have thought the same thing when the Upton talks cooled down only to see the trade happen a month after Christmas. I'm not holding my breath, but if a trade doesn't go down I think it has less to do about the date on the calendar as much as it does Jocketty not finding the fit he likes, or the Reds being stuck a bit between "win-now" and still being a pretty budget conscious team.
Blockbusters involve star principals moving or many players moving all at once or some combo of both. This isn't even a controversial definition. All of the trades I lumped under that definition. The winter meetings occur in December. I made what I considered a pretty innocuous but obvious observation that most all of the major wheeling and dealing occurs prior to Jan 1, slows considerably, then resumes a to a lesser extent in spring training. I didn't really need to look it up, but when I did, it validated what my inclinations were telling me.
But if you want to hold your breath and hope the Reds are one of the four or so teams on average involved in blockbusters post January 1, have fun. I'm hoping for some spring training injury opening up the door myself.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
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Originally Posted by
Falls City Beer
But if you want to hold your breath and hope the Reds are one of the four or so teams on average involved in blockbusters post January 1, have fun. I'm hoping for some spring training injury opening up the door myself.
That's just pure garbage. You completely ignored my second paragraph. Sometimes I'm not sure why people bother when you just make things up in the fly.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
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Originally Posted by
Patrick Bateman
That's just pure garbage. You completely ignored my second paragraph. Sometimes I'm not sure why people bother when you just make things up in the fly.
Okay, so you don't believe a deal will be made. You're not holding your breath. Good. Got it. (Though I would argue that only reinforces my point).
What else will put your mind at ease? What else will convince you?
Block me if my perceived disingenuousness bothers you. I'm not the one here flinging personal attacks or attacks on character.
I'm not even sure what you're arguing with me for, since, in essence, we seem to agree ("the heavy lifting has been done")
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
We are bickering over trades? Yikes.. This offseason has turned us against one another! Way to go Bob & Walt..
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Falls City Beer
Okay, so you don't believe a deal will be made. You're not holding your breath. Good. Got it. (Though I would argue that only reinforces my point).
What else will put your mind at ease? What else will convince you?
Block me if my perceived disingenuousness bothers you. I'm not the one here flinging personal attacks or attacks on character.
I'm not even sure what you're arguing with me for, since, in essence, we seem to agree ("the heavy lifting has been done")
I think what PB is pointing out, again, is that it is OK to admit when you're wrong, when you made a sweeping generalization that wasn't supported by factual evidence. It actually makes your factually correct arguments stronger and makes people (or the board collectively) less prone to rolling their eyes when you make your next sweepingly pessimistic statement.
While hyperbole can sometimes be effective to illustrate an argument, it can also dilute and sometimes jeopardize the credibility of what could otherwise be a good point. Like many longtime posters on this board, you do frequently make good points. This was not an example of one that held up in reality. Probably best to admit it and move on.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
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Originally Posted by
OneManBand
We are bickering over trades? Yikes.. This offseason has turned us against one another! Way to go Bob & Walt..
I think you just solved the riddle of what Jocketty has been spending his off-season time doing.
He's probably been sitting in his plush office, maliciously watching RZ disintegrate waiting for him to do anything.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
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Originally Posted by
CySeymour
What would Toronto want any part of that deal?
I can kind of see it depending how much they value Phillips. Homer and Rasmus are both expiring contracts, so they kind of even out.
I would not want the Reds to do it actually.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
I'd like to see something involving Phillips to the Yankees for Gardner and Homer to the Angels for Kendrick. We then address our top of the batting order. We'd have a hole in the rotation that we'd need to address w/ maybe a FA signing.. but the offense would seem to be solved.
Gardner - CF
Kendrick - 2B
Votto - 1B
Bruce - RF
Ludwick - LF
Frazier - 3B
Cozart - SS
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wonderful Monds
I can kind of see it depending how much they value Phillips. Homer and Rasmus are both expiring contracts, so they kind of even out.
I would not want the Reds to do it actually.
So it would be Ludwick for Bautista, essentially. No way Toronto would do that.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
Best way for the Reds to make a significant trade unless Walt really rips a team a new one.
1. Sign Arroyo or another solid starting option. It'll give you the same starters as last year.
2. Trade Cueto or Bailey for the best possible return.
3. Depending on who is acquired, move other pieces accordingly.
Unless Walt can find a good three way deal or a GM that really finds value in a player that we don't, I believe this would be the most realistic course of action to acquire more offense.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
Been thinking about it. I'm calling Phillips to be traded in January.
Blue Jays probably. Braves possibly.
Reds won't allow BP to become a five and ten year player. Then they won't be able to move him.
Jays have always been most logical. They haven't solved their second base issue.
Reds get either Bautista or Rasmus. Maybe Reds add Ludwick and/or a prospect. Conceivably a bigger trade involving a Reds pitcher. Jays include maybe Izturis their current second baseman. Reds probably would also like Brett Lawrie to add some big time scrapiness.
Braves, harder to find a trade mix. Uggla might come over but that's just for money purposes. Reds would need a major additional sweetener.
The details are probably wrong, but I'm calling BP to be traded in the next few weeks.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kc61
Been thinking about it. I'm calling Phillips to be traded in January.
Blue Jays probably. Braves possibly.
Reds won't allow BP to become a five and ten year player. Then they won't be able to move him.
Jays have always been most logical. They haven't solved their second base issue.
Reds get either Bautista or Rasmus. Maybe Reds add Ludwick and/or a prospect. Conceivably a bigger trade involving a Reds pitcher. Jays include maybe Izturis their current second baseman. Reds probably would also like Brett Lawrie to add some big time scrapiness.
Braves, harder to find a trade mix. Uggla might come over but that's just for money purposes. Reds would need a major additional sweetener.
The details are probably wrong, but I'm calling BP to be traded in the next few weeks.
Sending Phillips to baseball Siberia (TOR) seems cruel. If the return is just Rasmus, count me largely uninspired.
Re: Offseason Deals and Rumors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kc61
Been thinking about it. I'm calling Phillips to be traded in January.
Blue Jays probably. Braves possibly.
Reds won't allow BP to become a five and ten year player. Then they won't be able to move him.
Jays have always been most logical. They haven't solved their second base issue.
Reds get either Bautista or Rasmus. Maybe Reds add Ludwick and/or a prospect. Conceivably a bigger trade involving a Reds pitcher. Jays include maybe Izturis their current second baseman. Reds probably would also like Brett Lawrie to add some big time scrapiness.2
Braves, harder to find a trade mix. Uggla might come over but that's just for money purposes. Reds would need a major additional sweetener.
The details are probably wrong, but I'm calling BP to be traded in the next few weeks.
I'm not in favor of trading BP unless the return is big, and a return of Bautista/Rasmus would qualify. Bautista by himself would be great. Rasmus would be a great addition if the Reds added another piece. I would certainly not do Phillips for Rasmus as the centerpiece, but a bigger deal involving Phillips and Ludwick (and some other piece - not necessarily Bailey) for Bautista and Rasmus would be the kind of splashy deal that Walt has become known for salvaging the offseason with.
I don't see the Jays trading their Canadian fan favorite Lawrie. I think Joey Bats and Rasmus would be more than enough to satiate the Reds if they were giving up BP, Ludwick and one other piece- especially if that piece was a prospect like Winker, or even a pitcher like Leake. Then just sign Arroyo to replace Leake, give Rasmus a qualifying offer if he can repeat his 2013, and be happy if he takes it (to bridge to Yorman/Ervin - see below on Hamilton's future in this scenario) and happy if he doesn't (Reds get an extra comp pick).
Of course unless there was a corresponding move for someone like Kendrick, this would likely imply Hamilton moving back to 2B. Otherwise the vacuous hole there might be too big for this team to overcome.