-
Congrats to the NFL...
On, again, showing why it is the greatest professional sports league in the world tonight with it's title game. Nothing compares to baseball in my heart, but for the competitive balance, a fair salary structure and the drama of individual events, nothing compares to the NFL as it currently exists in the history of professional sports.
Congratulations to the Patriots for working within this, the most competitive system of all time, to establish the most legitimate "dynasty" in the last 29 years in all of professional sports. The New England reign really means something. Why should I ever be a fan when their spoils mean nothing to me? But, why should I not hold them in the highest respect regardless of that when they thrive in a system that rewards intelligence and due dilligence?
Baseball could learn a thing or two from the NFL. Nobody could ever disuade me from how I feel after watching the NFL kick the ass of every other professional sport for over a decade.... and counting. No how, no way. This is how all sports should be.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Didn't watch the Chicago Bulls a lot during the 90's, didja? ;)
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Good points, but as to your underlying assumption -- that the salary cap is responsible for this -- I have to disagree. The NFL has been on an upward curve since the early 1960s when the league took over complete control of TV game broadcasts; people have been talking about NFL parity (sometimes in mocking "parity = mediocrity" tones) for decades; the NFL had long since passed MLB as the national pastime by the time they put in a salary cap. Revenue sharing, not the salary cap, is why the NFL has had competitive balance all along. Revenue sharing is why the Green Bay Packers still exist.
As I watch the NFL, frankly, I don't see much that's different from the pre-cap days -- except for a lot more offseason news. For all the talk about how it makes it harder to stay on top, the Patriots are still there and not going anywhere, the Eagles have been good for a half-dozen years now, and any team that can luck into a good quarterback will make a run as long as they can find some talent to go around him. The smartest teams still win, the others still lose. The only real effect I've seen from the cap is to slightly compress the build-win-rebuild cycle. That's all.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandRed
Revenue sharing, not the salary cap, is why the NFL has had competitive balance all along. Revenue sharing is why the Green Bay Packers still exist.
Amen, brother. I've argued the same thing on several occassions. Better sharing of local revenues is the key to a more equitable system within baseball. M2 convinced me of this a few years back and I've been a spokesman ever since.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
/\ Agrees, full revenue sharing is the only answer, no salary cap or floor will help as much
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandRed
Revenue sharing, not the salary cap, is why the NFL has had competitive balance all along. Revenue sharing is why the Green Bay Packers still exist.
That's half right----but the salary cap is the other half of the equation.
The L.A. Times had an interesting article regarding the players' relations with various leagues. The thesis, advanced by a number of 'experts' (labor consultants, sports marketing professors and sports business analysts) is that where players form a 'partnership' with owners not only do the players and owners prosper but so does the game.
From the L. A. Times, 2/5/05:
"....sports business analysts say the landscape has shifted.
From a sustainable business model, there's a key partnership that has to be forged....There's a feeling that ownership would like to have some cost certainity and would be willing to reward players for building the business.
The example....(they)....point to is the NFL.
The league has a so-called 'hard' cap that prohibits teams from spending more than approximately 64% of defined gross revenues, or money from radio, television or gate.
Players agreed to that upper limit because they received a 'floor' that forces teams to spend at least 56% of revenues on payroll. This guarantees the players a slice of ever-expanding broadcast dollars."
Baseball, so far, has not formed that partnership though the NHL is the poster child for lack of agreement at this time.
Rem
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandRed
...the Patriots are still there and not going anywhere...
This is the only thing from your post that I disagree with. I know this is the baseball forum, but I can't resist pointing out that NE is losing their offensive coordinator and their defensive coordinator from their three championship teams, and neither will be easily replaced.
They'll remain a good team for a while, but the dynasty is over. They'll fall back to the pack in '05. Mark it down.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by macro
This is the only thing from your post that I disagree with. I know this is the baseball forum, but I can't resist pointing out that NE is losing their offensive coordinator and their defensive coordinator from their three championship teams, and neither will be easily replaced.
They'll remain a good team for a while, but the dynasty is over. They'll fall back to the pack in '05. Mark it down.
Not unless that guy Brady retires.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
David Klingler could QB that team and they'd still win.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWM
David Klingler could QB that team and they'd still win.
Well except David Klingler doesn't quarterback that team, Tom Brady does. He now has 3 rings, has the lowest turnover ratio in NFL postseason history (better than Starr), and is 10-1 in postseason play. And he's well on his way to the Hall of Fame. The only thing he didn't do today was get his 3rd MVP trophy. What does he have to do to convince you people?
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Brady is a great short passer in the tradition of Joe Montana.
Maybe the wackiest thing is Romeo Crennel becoming the Browns new head coach. The same Crennel who was DC in Cleveland during the 2000 season when they beat Belichecks Patriots when Bill was considered a idiot. Strange how things work out.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Opps I was wrong, Brady's 9-0 in postseason. Plus I seem to remmember that he had a huge game in winning the Orange bowl.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutaman
Well except David Klingler doesn't quarterback that team, Tom Brady does. He now has 3 rings, has the lowest turnover ratio in NFL postseason history (better than Starr), and is 10-1 in postseason play. And he's well on his way to the Hall of Fame. The only thing he didn't do today was get his 3rd MVP trophy. What does he have to do to convince you people?
Contribute more to his teams wins than his coaching staff does.
I've never seen a team before that has more talent on the sidelines than on the field of play until this Patriots team.
If I'm starting a team I take that front office and Bill Belichek. Brady's an afterthought.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
What was Belicheks' record in Cleveland? What was his record in New England when Bledsoe was his quarterback?
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
I checked it out myself.
Belichick coached 5 years at Cleveland and had an overall record of 36- 44
for a .450 winning percentage. he made the playoffs in 1994 advancing to Round 2.
In 2000, his first year in New England, with Bledsoe as his quarterback he went 5-11. In 2001, with Bledsoe as his quarterback, he lost his first game 23-17, and his second game 10-3. Bledsoe then got hurt and Brady started game 3 winning 44-13. With Brady at the helm, New England went 14-3 the rest of the way and 3-0 in post season, winning the superbowl.
Summary:
Belichick regular season w/o Brady: 36-46 .439
Belichick regular season with Brady : 48-14 .774
Belichick post season w/o Brady : 1-1 .500 No rings.
Belichick post season with Brady: 9-0 1.000 3 rings.
As great a coach as Bill Belichick is, I don't think he could go 57-14 with David Klinger at quarterback, and I don't think the above stats allow anyone to consider Tom Brady an "afterthought".
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Tom Brady is the Greg Maddux of the NFL...but WITH THE RINGS.
He just gets it done. (I was rooting for the Eagles, but...the Pats were superior).
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Today is the greatest day of the year.
Pro football officially moves off the radar for 6 months.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 15fan
Today is the greatest day of the year.
Pro football officially moves off the radar for 6 months.
What, are you kidding? There's the Pro Bowl next week and then there is going to be specualtion about the draft then the draft itself in April. Then you have mini-camps. Then on June 1 they will cut guys because of salary cap purposes and not too long after that there will be training camp then it starts all over again. :help: Like it or not, the NFL does a good job of keeping interest up during the off-season.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KronoRed
/\ Agrees, full revenue sharing is the only answer, no salary cap or floor will help as much
Adding my voice in agreement as well. The YES network provides Steinbrenner with a good chunk of the funds he uses on the Yankees. FSN Ohio and other similar networks just can't compete with that.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutaman
Well except David Klingler doesn't quarterback that team, Tom Brady does. He now has 3 rings, has the lowest turnover ratio in NFL postseason history (better than Starr), and is 10-1 in postseason play. And he's well on his way to the Hall of Fame. The only thing he didn't do today was get his 3rd MVP trophy. What does he have to do to convince you people?
Don't forget another guy who is coming back wo is *also* 10-1 in the playoffs.
Mr. Belichick.
Sorry, I've been hearing now after each Super Bowl they win why the Patriots won't be coming back...they've lost this, that and the other. I'm not saying for certain they WILL be back in '06, but I certainly am not writing them off either.
And, yes, Tom Brady is amazing. Not a superstar on the level of Favre or Vick or McNabb...but he's got the rings that those guys don't have.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
i remember listening to a game while on the way to work last year between the Reds and the Cardnals. the cards were getting base hits when they needed them, putting in the right pitchers when needed (depressing to see their relievers with ERAs a bit above 3.00, while we were lucky to have any below 5.00).
anyway, as the cardnals were meticulously chipping away at a reds lead, Marty said the Cards were a true professional team, one which could get the job done whenever needed.
that statement is exactly what i think when i see the Patriots. yeah, they have their share of superstars, but most of their players are there to simply get the job done. frankly, it is rather amazing to watch a team like that perform. a dynasty indeed.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelSD
Contribute more to his teams wins than his coaching staff does.
I've never seen a team before that has more talent on the sidelines than on the field of play until this Patriots team.
If I'm starting a team I take that front office and Bill Belichek. Brady's an afterthought.
While I agree that coaching staffs are WAY more important in football than in baseball, I REALLY have to disagree with you on this, a whole bunch. I'll take the Pats team as it is and cobble together a coaching staff...and still compete for a ring year in and year out. But I do think Brady's overrated. Dillon on the other hand....
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
I suspect that the players will start wanting money now instead of doingt he whole team thing, and in fact, that Patriots will not three-peat. Now thats not to say they won't succeed and have a good season, but I could see them falling to 10-6 or 9-7 and a first round playoff exit next year.
I do agree with the main sentement though, the NFL does more to make its self popular than any league out there. My beloved MLB could take a few lessons.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
We wouldn't be calling the Patriots a 'dynasty' if the Eagles' watch have been set off of this atomic watch. :thumbup:
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
It's simple for me, I have nothing against Brady (hey, I attend the University of Michigan). BUt based on my watching of the games, that offensive line is one of the best i've seen in years. In the playoffs this year I started actually timing how long he had to throw the ball. He consistently has 6-7 seconds to throw the ball. That's why I said Klingler could QB the team. There's not a QB alive who couldn't find open receivers given the time he's given. Have you ever seen Tom Brady leave the pocket to make a play. It never happens because he never has to. That's not to say Brady isn't very good, but just because his team wins does not propel HIM, as opposed to the team, to the ranks of the all-time greats. HE doesn't win games, his team does. And even if you break it down a step further and ask if the offense or the defense has more to do with the success of the Pats, you'd have to say the defense is more responsible. There's at least 5 QBs in the NFL I'd rather have than Brady if I'm starting a team. Surely people realize there's much more a team's success than the QB. It's one of those things that just because his team wins, they thing that the QB must be responsible. If you put any one of a bunch of QBs in the situation Brady's in, they'd do just as well if not better. And if you put Brady in a situation where he's relied on to make things happen without the supporting cast he has, I don't think he'd be all that successful. That's just my opinion based on watching over the last few years. There's much more to football than the QB.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
While I agree that coaching staffs are WAY more important in football than in baseball, I REALLY have to disagree with you on this, a whole bunch. I'll take the Pats team as it is and cobble together a coaching staff...and still compete for a ring year in and year out. But I do think Brady's overrated. Dillon on the other hand....
Hmn, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because I don't feel that the Pats team would fare nearly as well without that coaching staff. Don't get me wrong, I think they have a solid talent base.
But that team doesn't play as well with another coaching staff. And that team doesn't get put together to stay together without that front office. They're the NFL version of Moneyball (heh...that should rile some folks).
I don't necessarily think that Brady is overrated. He's the QB on a three-time Super Bowl champ so he's going to get a lot of the credit showered onto him. Heck, he gets credit for winning an AFC Championship game he got knocked out of. But he's not a "scare you to death" QB. Dillon? Eh. Two SB's without him. One with him.
Eh. IMHO, the three most important players on that team (in no order) are Rodney Harrison, Deion Branch, and Troy Brown. But the two most important components of that football team are its front office and coach.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
I agrre with MWM. What was it Paul Brown said about the game being won in the trenches?
Also...
Comparing Brady with Bledsoe is problematic, as they have different philophies about the QB position...
Bledsoe - play hard run when you need to, make something happen - Now!, take the hits.
Brady - analyze the D, don't throw an Int, didn't get a first, don't worry, we'll get the ball again.
That's the same type of attitude that got Baltimore their championship. I don't think Belicheck could have won with Bledsoe, or Vick, or McNabb, or... But if you replace Brady with Dilfer, or Manning, or even Palmer I think the Pats could still win.
It's more about Belicheck's system, and fitting into it. Looking at the raw gifts, Brady is not as good as some of the others, but he fit's the system perfectlly. In NE Belicheck has the players that fit the system, he may not have had that elsewhere...
That's what's interesting about next season, with the O and D coordinators gone, how with Belicheck's system change, and will the Pat's fade away.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 15fan
Today is the greatest day of the year.
Pro football officially moves off the radar for 6 months.
No it doesn't. There is the draft and free agency to be talked about all year around. It is the greatest show on earth! Bar None. The NFL has the NFL Network. Will baseball ever have this? Nope!
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Brady absolutely should be mentioned with the best that have ever played the QB position. He has never had an All-Pro player on offense unitl this year, and that streak was broken by Corey Dillon who is an alternate for the Pro Bowl this year. Along the way, he has compiled a 9-0 career playoff record, a 78% winning percentage, and the 7th highest passer rating in the history of the NFL.
While he has had some good defenses, this New England defense would never be confused with the Steel Curtain or any other truly dominating defense. Heck, year in and year out, you could find a handful of defenses that are better than NE. I agree that the front office and coaching staff is the best in the NFL, but Tom Brady is the person who brings it all together on the field. The best comparison I heard for Tom Brady over this whole year wasn't another NFL player, but instead NY Yankee SS Derek Jeter.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Brady absolutely should be mentioned with the best that have ever played the QB position.
When you say "with the best that have ever played the QB position..." are you talking about the best 100 or the best 10? Because if we're talking about the best 100, we can scoot him in there. If we're talking about the best ten? Well...no.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Well, we need to include Teddy Brushci and Willie McGinnest in the list of greatest linebackers of all-time, Troy Brown in the list of best WRs of all-time, the Pats offensive line as the best of all-time and anyone else who's been there for the three Super Bowl teams. This Patriots team is a great team, the best since the Cowboys of the 90s. This defense is one of the hardest to score on I've ever seen. The offense is like the starting pitching of the Big Red Machine, do just enough to not blow it and let the great 8 do the rest. I've watched football my entire life and I know when I'm wathing a great team and I know when I'm watching great QB play. John Elway - now THAT was great QB play.
Tom Brady is Trent Dilfer of the Ravens a few years back (better than Dilfer, but in a smiliar situation), but with the team sticking together a little longer. If Trent Dilfer can win Super Bowls, then the idea that if a QB wins Super Bowls makes them a great QB has to be thrown out the window.
I know great QB play when I see it. Peyton Manning this year was GREAT QB play. Tom Brady is very good, but not in the same class as the great ones just because he plays on a great team.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Nice piece by Jayson Stark comparing the competitive balance between the two sports.
Quote:
By Jayson Stark
ESPN.com
You may have heard that there's some kind of big football game coming up. Well, here at Useless Info Central, we try to stay relevant. So we'll, uh, kick off this column with some football-related baseball notes:
Here's something to ponder: Football is the sport that's always praised for its spectacular competitive balance. But as loyal reader David Hallstrom reports, five different baseball teams have won the World Series over the last five years. Think that happens all the time in football? Think again.
In the NFL's 39-year Super Bowl era, there has been exactly one five-year period in which five different teams won a title -- 1984-88. And even if you include the pre-Supe era, that's the only five-year span in which the NFL can make that claim over its last 57 seasons.
Then there's this year's Super Bowl matchup -- which didn't exactly come out of nowhere. It matches one team going for its third title in four years (the Patriots) versus another team (the Eagles) that has made it to four straight conference finals.
In other words, for a sport that's supposed to be so wide open, there sure has been a lot of regularity to the NFL's postseason final four.
In fact, it turns out the NFL's final four teams actually have been more predictable over the last four years than baseball's final four. In baseball, 12 of the 30 franchises have made it to a League Championship Series over the past four seasons. In football, only 10 have been to a conference final.
Or let's take this back even more years. Over the last eight baseball postseasons, 16 of the 30 MLB franchises have been to at least one LCS (53.3 percent). That's virtually exactly the same percentage as the NFL (17 of 32, 53.1 percent). So it may be true that there's more parity in football. But it isn't true that it's tougher to predict which teams will still be standing at the end.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Great post MWM. I agree with you completely.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Disagree re: Brady, MWM. I see a lot of Pats up here in New England, and the guy is a great, great decision maker. Very accurate arm. Uncanny on third down. Tough (played with multiple injuries -- and needed surgery later -- in winning the SB in 2003). And the greatest post-season QB perhaps ever.
The comparison to Trent Dilfer is laughable. Dilfer's team won on defense. Brady's teams just win, whether they need 20 points or 35. The correct comparison, in my opinion, is Joe Montana. And I think he'll end up eclipsing Montana.
I'm a Bengals fan. But I've seen enough of Brady over the last several years to gain an appreciation for what he means to that team. I doubt you've seen him enough.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWM
I know great QB play when I see it. Peyton Manning this year was GREAT QB play. Tom Brady is very good, but not in the same class as the great ones just because he plays on a great team.
It makes for good arguing, doesn't it? Still, football is so much more of a true team sport than the others. Baseball is more individualistic in nature, basketball has a lot fewer players and one guy can pretty much take over a game... in football, every play is about teamwork, and one guy not doing his job can ruin it. And don't forget coaching. From playcalling to "systems," the impact of coaching on a team's success is so much greater in the NFL. (In MLB and the NBA, you get the idea that if the managers/coaches didn't show up for a day, the game would go on and the fans might not notice much difference.)
While I agree that championships are what it's all about, there's only a certain extent -- a limited extent -- that any one football player can be credited or debited for them.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Please don't compare Brady with Trent Dilfer. Please don't, its embarassing.
Trent Dilfer did not win superbowls, he won one, against a very average New York Giant team with Kerry Collins at quarterback. Manning? How many points did Manning put up against New England when it counted? 3? Heck, even McNabb, as bad as he was, threw 2 TD passes yesterday.
I repeat:
Belichick regular season w/o Brady: 36-46 .439
Belichick regular season with Brady : 48-14 .774
Belichick post season w/o Brady : 1-1 .500 No rings.
Belichick post season with Brady: 9-0 1.000 3 rings.
all you Brady bashers, please explain.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
The comparison to Trent Dilfer is laughable. Dilfer's team won on defense. Brady's teams just win, whether they need 20 points or 35. The correct comparison, in my opinion, is Joe Montana. And I think he'll end up eclipsing Montana.
Right. And I'm sure you already hold Brady in higher esteem than Bradshaw, Staubach, Young, Favre, Manning, Starr, Unitas, Elway, etc. etc.
Brady's not even the best QB among his peers much less deserving of sharing a post with the names in the paragraph above.
The best Brady comp you're going to get at this point is Troy Aikman. That's not bad company at all and certainly not any sort of "bashing" of the guy. Anything more is pure hyperbole.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelSD
Right. And I'm sure you already hold Brady in higher esteem than Bradshaw, Staubach, Young, Favre, Manning, Starr, Unitas, Elway, etc. etc.
Well of course not, Brady's only 27 years old. But Starr is an interesting comparison. As with Brady, some people criticized Starr saying anybody could quarterback the great Packer teams. As a lifelong Packer fan who goes back to before Lombardi, I can tell you thats simply not true, Starr was special and a key to that team. And there isn't one player on those teams who wouldn't tell you different.
Right now there's only one active quarterback who's a sure Hall of Famer and thats Brett. But I'm willing to bet Brady gets in too, and at this rate God knows how many rings he'll have before he hangs it up. he can play for my team anyday.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutaman
Well of course not, Brady's only 27 years old. But Starr is an interesting comparison. As with Brady, some people criticized Starr saying anybody could quarterback the great Packer teams. As a lifelong Packer fan who goes back to before Lombardi, I can tell you thats simply not true, Starr was special and a key to that team. And there isn't one player on those teams who wouldn't tell you different.
Right now there's only one active quarterback who's a sure Hall of Famer and thats Brett. But I'm willing to bet Brady gets in too, and at this rate God knows how many rings he'll have before he hangs it up. he can play for my team anyday.
Peyton Manning isn't a sure Hall of Famer?
Have I been watching a different sport or something? I swear that I've been watching NFL football. Even have the DirecTV bills to prove it.
Again, I'm not bashing Brady. I appreciate him for what he is- reliable and system-oriented. But that being said, he's outclassed by several of his contemporaries and will most likely continue to be outclassed by several of his contemporaries for years to come. It's good that he's collecting rings because without those he'd have very little chance of making it to Canton without paying for a ticket.
-
Re: Congrats to the NFL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by macro
This is the only thing from your post that I disagree with. I know this is the baseball forum, but I can't resist pointing out that NE is losing their offensive coordinator and their defensive coordinator from their three championship teams, and neither will be easily replaced.
They'll remain a good team for a while, but the dynasty is over. They'll fall back to the pack in '05. Mark it down.
As long as they still have Belichick, they'll be just fine.