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-   -   Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53671)

savafan 01-02-2007 03:40 AM
Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Much like the the Jim Rice VS. Dave Parker question, if you were a GM and had the opportunity to choose only one of these guys to play for your team in their prime, which one would you choose? This may be closer and tougher than you think.

Concepcion's Stats:

Code:
Year Ag Tm  Lg  G  AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  TB  SH  SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 1970 22 CIN NL 101  265  38  69  6  3  1  19  10  2  23  45  .260  .324  .317  84  3  2  5  3  10
 1971 23 CIN NL 130  327  24  67  4  4  1  20  9  3  18  51  .205  .246  .251  82  8  1  2  0  10
 1972 24 CIN NL 119  378  40  79  13  2  2  29  13  6  32  65  .209  .272  .270  102  5  4  8  2  11
 1973 25 CIN NL  89  328  39  94  18  3  8  46  22  5  21  55  .287  .327  .433  142  2  5  3  1  7 AS
 1974 26 CIN NL 160  594  70  167  25  1  14  82  41  6  44  79  .281  .335  .397  236  5  4  10  6  20 MVP-15
 1975 27 CIN NL 140  507  62  139  23  1  5  49  33  6  39  51  .274  .326  .353  179  6  4  4  2  17 AS
 1976 28 CIN NL 152  576  74  162  28  7  9  69  21 10  49  68  .281  .335  .401  231  4  6  11  1  11 AS
 1977 29 CIN NL 156  572  59  155  26  3  8  64  29  7  46  77  .271  .322  .369  211  6  6  6  0  15 AS
 1978 30 CIN NL 153  565  75  170  33  4  6  67  23 10  51  83  .301  .357  .405  229  3  4  4  1  14 AS
 1979 31 CIN NL 149  590  91  166  25  3  16  84  19  7  64  73  .281  .348  .415  245  6  6  5  0  18 MVP-9,AS
 1980 32 CIN NL 156  622  72  162  31  8  5  77  12  2  37 107  .260  .300  .360  224  2  6  2  1  20 AS
 1981 33 CIN NL 106  421  57  129  28  0  5  67  4  5  37  61  .306  .358  .409  172  2  7  1  1  13 SS,MVP-4,AS
 1982 34 CIN NL 147  572  48  164  25  4  5  53  13  6  45  61  .287  .337  .371  212  2  4  4  0  20 SS,AS
 1983 35 CIN NL 143  528  54  123  22  0  1  47  14  9  56  81  .233  .303  .280  148  2  7  9  0  21
 1984 36 CIN NL 154  531  46  130  26  1  4  58  22  6  52  72  .245  .307  .320  170  8  9  5  0  9
 1985 37 CIN NL 155  560  59  141  19  2  7  48  16 12  50  67  .252  .314  .330  185  3  4  3  3  23
 1986 38 CIN NL  90  311  42  81  13  2  3  30  13  2  26  43  .260  .314  .344  107  5  4  1  0  13
 1987 39 CIN NL 104  279  32  89  15  0  1  33  4  3  28  24  .319  .377  .384  107  1  3  5  0  10
 1988 40 CIN NL  84  197  11  39  9  0  0    8  3  2  18  23  .198  .265  .244  48  1  0  5  0  4
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 19 Seasons        8723      2326    48      950    109    1186  .267  .322  .357      74  86  93  21 266
              2488      993      389    101      321    736                      3114



Smith's Stats:

Code:
Year Ag Tm  Lg  G  AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  TB  SH  SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 1978 23 SDP NL 159  590  69  152  17  6  1  46  40 12  47  43  .258  .311  .312  184  28  3  0  0  11 RoY-2
 1979 24 SDP NL 156  587  77  124  18  6  0  27  28  7  37  37  .211  .260  .262  154  22  1  5  2  11
 1980 25 SDP NL 158  609  67  140  18  5  0  35  57 15  71  49  .230  .313  .276  168  23  4  1  5  9
 1981 26 SDP NL 110  450  53  100  11  2  0  21  22 12  41  37  .222  .294  .256  115  10  1  1  5  8 AS
 1982 27 STL NL 140  488  58  121  24  1  2  43  25  5  68  32  .248  .339  .314  153  4  5  12  2  10 MVP-13,AS
 1983 28 STL NL 159  552  69  134  30  6  3  50  34  7  64  36  .243  .321  .335  185  7  2  9  1  10 MVP-21,AS
 1984 29 STL NL 124  412  53  106  20  5  1  44  35  7  56  17  .257  .347  .337  139  11  3  5  2  8 AS
 1985 30 STL NL 158  537  70  148  22  3  6  54  31  8  65  27  .276  .355  .361  194  9  2  11  2  13 MVP-18,AS
 1986 31 STL NL 153  514  67  144  19  4  0  54  31  7  79  27  .280  .376  .333  171  11  3  13  2  9 AS
 1987 32 STL NL 158  600  104  182  40  4  0  75  43  9  89  36  .303  .392  .383  230  12  4  3  1  9 SS,MVP-2,AS
 1988 33 STL NL 153  575  80  155  27  1  3  51  57  9  74  43  .270  .350  .336  193  12  7  2  1  7 AS
 1989 34 STL NL 155  593  82  162  30  8  2  50  29  7  55  37  .273  .335  .361  214  11  3  3  2  10 AS
 1990 35 STL NL 143  512  61  130  21  1  1  50  32  6  61  33  .254  .330  .305  156  7  10  4  2  8 AS
 1991 36 STL NL 150  550  96  157  30  3  3  50  35  9  83  36  .285  .380  .367  202  6  1  2  1  8 MVP-20,AS
 1992 37 STL NL 132  518  73  153  20  2  0  31  43  9  59  34  .295  .367  .342  177  12  1  4  0  11 MVP-22,AS
 1993 38 STL NL 141  545  75  157  22  6  1  53  21  8  43  18  .288  .337  .356  194  7  7  1  1  11
 1994 39 STL NL  98  381  51  100  18  3  3  30  6  3  38  26  .262  .326  .349  133  10  4  3  0  3 AS
 1995 40 STL NL  44  156  16  31  5  1  0  11  4  3  17  12  .199  .282  .244  38  5  2  0  2  6 AS
 1996 41 STL NL  82  227  36  64  10  2  2  18  7  5  25  9  .282  .358  .370  84  7  0  0  2  5 AS
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 19 Seasons        9396      2460    69      793    148    589  .262  .337  .328      214  63  79  33 167
              2573      1257      402    28      580  1072                      3084




FWIW, I noticed that as a shortstop, Concepcion's career fielding percentage is better than Smith's.

RANDY IN INDY 01-02-2007 06:56 AM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Davey.

Johnny Footstool 01-02-2007 09:36 AM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Ozzie by a long shot.

Dom Heffner 01-02-2007 12:30 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Concepcion is not a hall of famer. Ozzie is.

I hate Ozzie Smith, but the truth is the truth.

PuffyPig 01-02-2007 12:33 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
I always thought that Concepcion was a marginal HOF candidate in the same vien as Tony Perez.

Perez has gotten in, and Davey hasn't even been close. It's clear that, according to the voters, I overvalued Concepcion.

I'm still a little surprised with how badly he has fared in HOF voting. He alway hit very well for a SS (for his time), and was a perennial gold glove winner. He played in the WS three times, and invented the "hop" throw from the hole in SS for use on artificial turf.

TheBurn 01-02-2007 12:53 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Davey!

I'm old school...

:D

Marc D 01-02-2007 01:06 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
If I had to take one in my prime to build around its Ozzie. I like Davey better as a fan but the decision is pretty simple imo.

M2 01-02-2007 01:07 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool (Post 1220712)
Ozzie by a long shot.
Yep, he may have been the best defensive player ever.

BTW, that's no slight on Concepcion. Ozzie's one of the top 10 shortstops in baseball history.

RedsManRick 01-02-2007 01:46 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Having never seen Davey play in person, I think the problem with Concepcion wasn't the public face of the franchise and his reputation as an all-time great fielder isn't there -- fair or not.

I think there's some feeling that he was a fielding first SS on some really good teams and that his fieldling, while good, wasn't superlative in the way that Ozzie's was. While they did have a WS appearance, the Cards were usually a mediocre team through his tenure. He was able to shine, to stand out on a team that didn't have many other stars. He was speed and defense on teams that won with pitching, speed, and defense. Meanwhile, Davey was simply part of the crew with other household names like Morgan, Perez, Bench, Rose, Foster, etc.

In my mind, the question becomes, how much better defensively was Ozzie than Davey? How does Davey stack up historically. Frankly, unless he can be considered one of the all-time great SS defensively, I'm not sure he has a great case for the hall of fame (though I know that's not the question at hand). I think Omar Vizquel is going to find himself in the same boat.

Personally, I'd take Ozzie.

RANDY IN INDY 01-02-2007 02:03 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsManRick (Post 1220842)
Having never seen Davey play in person, I think the problem with Concepcion wasn't the public face of the franchise and his reputation as an all-time great fielder isn't there -- fair or not.

I think there's some feeling that he was a fielding first SS on some really good teams and that his fieldling, while good, wasn't superlative in the way that Ozzie's was. While they did have a WS appearance, the Cards were usually a mediocre team through his tenure. He was able to shine, to stand out on a team that didn't have many other stars. He was speed and defense on teams that won with pitching, speed, and defense. Meanwhile, Davey was simply part of the crew with other household names like Morgan, Perez, Bench, Rose, Foster, etc.

In my mind, the question becomes, how much better defensively was Ozzie than Davey? How does Davey stack up historically. Frankly, unless he can be considered one of the all-time great SS defensively, I'm not sure he has a great case for the hall of fame (though I know that's not the question at hand). I think Omar Vizquel is going to find himself in the same boat.

Personally, I'd take Ozzie.
Your first seven words would make it easy for me to believe that you wouldn't have as much respect for Concepcion's game as some of the other shortstops.

RedsManRick 01-02-2007 02:18 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Fair enough Randy. But I would make the argument that people who watched Davey play every day and cheered for his team are more likely to be biased regarding his relative standing in history than someone who never saw him play a game.

RANDY IN INDY 01-02-2007 02:26 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
I don't think I am biased in saying that Concepcion was the best shortstop in baseball during the time he played. When you compare him to the players that are in the Hall of Fame at that position, he stacks up pretty well.

M2 01-02-2007 02:33 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC (Post 1220860)
I don't think I am biased in saying that Concepcion was the best shortstop in baseball during the time he played. When you compare him to the players that are in the Hall of Fame at that position, he stacks up pretty well.
Exactly. Hard to ask more than being the best of your era, anchoring a dynasty, winning 5 GGs and appearing in 9 All-Star games. Throw in that his numbers are as good or better than half the shortstops in Cooperstown and I'm not sure what the argument against the guy is.

RANDY IN INDY 01-02-2007 02:51 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Exactly.

RANDY IN INDY 01-02-2007 02:57 PM
Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith
 
Not to mention, he played in 5 League Championship Series and 4 World Series, was the MVP of the 1982 All Star Game and won 2 Silver Slugger awards.


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