Originally Posted by Sea Ray
Who added the caveat "if the two were the same age, made the money etc"? They'll never be the same age so why add that in? You said you understand not trading Palmer for Daunte so we're in agreement. That's all I've been saying.
Now if you want to compare the two at the same age then you have to go back to their senior year in college. Palmer was a Heisman Trophy winner and was the #1 pick in the draft. Culpepper was the 5th QB taken that year, so the NFL personnel guys you refer to seem to have preferred Palmer.
I did, and I stand by my statement. What I was saying is that from a pure talent standpoint, Culpepper is the superior quarterback. I believe, and you'll undoubtedly disagree with me, that Daunte is the second-most physically gifted quarterback in the league, behind Vick. Mobile, huge, big arm, etc.
Go back and take a look at that draft. Culpepper was the fourth quarterback taken, after Couch, McNabb, and Akili Smith. Cade McNown was taken with the pick right after Minnesota. You surely meant that as a slight to Culpepper, but look at that draft class. You think any of those teams want those picks back now? You bet they would, with the exception of two. Don't slight Culpepper because other teams made poor draft choices.
Dig further into that draft and you'll find lots of people who said that without a doubt, Culpepper was the most physically gifted of the group. The problem was that he played at a small school (UCF) and no one was quite sure how those skills would translate. Me, I think they translated pretty well. Palmer on the other hand, was on a national powerhouse and got tons of media exposure. I wouldn't put too much stock into the Heisman Trophy either. Look up and down that list and you'll find plenty of winners who never even came close to being serviceable NFLers. Not a great indicator of future success, though the early returns on Palmerís career are very encouraging.
Don't cop out and say you don't know. C'mon, we're fans here trying to evaluate talent. Palmer is unproven.
I'll go on record as saying yes, I think Palmer can put up numbers in his prime equal to Culpepper's 2004. No one knows for sure. But we all like to play GM and that's what running a team is all about. How accurately can you project a player.
Do you think Palmer will put up numbers as good as Culpepper's best year or are you going to plead the 5th again? Tell us yes or no and why you think that way. That's what this board is all about...
For the record, I don't need you to tell me what I need to take a stance on and what I don't. Thanks.
But so as to indulge you, I'll say that no, I don't think Carson Palmer can put up numbers that approach Culpepper's 2004 season. Take a look: 41 TD's, 70% completion percentage, 111 QB rating, 5,100 total yards. That in my book is downright unconscious. Palmer will be a very good quarterback, a consistent 30 TD guy, and he may have a crazy year like Culpepper did, but I doubt it. He just doesn't seem to me to be a guy whose attributes are off the charts. Very solid all-around, but nothing he does makes me sit back and say "wow." When I see Culpepper shrug off a blitzing linebacker and then immediately chuck the ball 50 yards downfield, that makes me say "wow." The only real advantage I see that Palmer has over Culpepper is age. Even that though isn't huge, Daunte is just 28, certainly not over-the-hill by any means.
All this talk about whether or not to trade Culpepper for Palmer seems ridiculous to me, though for a different reason I'm sure. If I'm the GM of a team that is looking to compete for a Super Bowl right now, I want Culpepper as my quarterback over Palmer. More experience, better all-around athlete. Palmer is better off being on a younger team where he can better assume a leadership role and grow with the rest of his team. You all probably think I'm crazy, but a GM who turns down a Palmer for Culpepper trade (he'd be the one getting Palmer) would not immediately lose his job. You could make the case that if you're the 49ers or Browns or any other rebuilding team that a trade like that makes sense because the goal is to get younger. Otherwise, you're taking a step back.
The reason us Bengal fans would prefer Palmer to Culpepper is because Carson is the up and coming QB and Culpepper's career has peaked. We're looking to the future while the Vikings are on the downswing.
I really don't know where to start.
Let me get this straight: you're saying that at the age of 28, Culpepper has peaked? That means it's all downhill from here, right? No continuation, but rather a sudden drop-off in production. Iím saying that because itís the only way you can justify wanting Palmer as your quarterback over Culpepper.
Just exactly what makes you think that? Let me say this again: he is 28 years old. I don't know of too many quarterbacks who suddenly fell off the face of the planet after two Pro Bowl seasons at the ages of 26 and 27. Granted, his numbers couldn't get much better than they did last year, but going into this season there was no reason to believe they would drop-off dramatically. While his first two games have been bad, I said before that I have no doubt he will rebound as soon as things get settled around him and put up comparable numbers.
The Vikings are on the downswing? Well thank goodness you let me know, because otherwise I might be getting my hopes up for the next couple of years without any reason to. I mean, a team with a great young defensive line that includes possibly the premier DT in the game in Kevin Williams, some promising young linebackers and two top-shelf cornerbacks who have at least four years of top-flight production left is probably cause for concern.
Things are even worse on the other side of the ball, come to think of it. According to you, Culpepper's career is sure to go downhill from here, and surely the offensive line shows no promise, what with Bryant McKinnie, Mike Rosenthal, Marcus Johnson, Adam Goldberg and Chris Liwienski all on their last legs (for those wondering, Johnson was a second round pick in 2004, McKinnie is 26, Goldberg is 25, Rosenthal is 28, and Liwienski is the elder statesman of the group at 30. This doesn't include Matt Birk, who is 29, but I didn't list him at first because of the questions surrounding his health).
Looking at the wide receivers things just get worse, seeing as how Burleson is obviously done at the age of 24, as is Troy Williamson at 22, Travis Taylor at 26, and newcomer Koren Robinson at 25. What about running backs, you ask? Certainly they paint a dark picture as well. Mewelde Moore is in his second year, Ciatrick Fason is a rookie, Onterrio Smith (assuming he can stay off the Ricky Williams health program) will be in his fourth year when/if he returns next year and Michael Bennett is 27.
You know, maybe you have a point. Looks to me as though there will certainly be rough times ahead for this team, especially since they have no cap room to go out and add/retain players and an owner who doesn't want to win.
Now I think I'll take your advice and tell you what I really think and not "cop out" as you say: you could not possibly be more wrong about the Vikings. Next time, do your homework before you go spouting off about who's finished and on the downswing. Trust me, we'll all be better for it.
This is very much an up and coming team. More so now because we have an owner willing to spend and will again have the cap room to do it in the off season. Maybe the preseason Super Bowl hype was premature (I don't think so, this is as talented a team as I've seen in Minnesota since I've been around, with the possible exception of 1998, though that team was skewed way towards offensive talent), but they are by no means headed for trouble because of a lack of young talent. Maybe you should look away from that bright shining sun that is the Bengals, put on some sunglasses and look around the league, because believe it or not there are other franchises with just as much promise as your wonderful Cincinnati Bengals.