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Thread: 2013 Golf Season Thread

  1. #121
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    DQ
    Last edited by Razor Shines; 04-13-2013 at 11:49 AM.

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  3. #122
    Member top6's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stray View Post
    I'm by no means a golf rules expert, but I think there are drops where you're allowed to go as far back as you want as long as you keep the spot between you and the hole. And had he knowingly bent a rule, I find it hard to believe he'd just admit to it like that. Sounds like he misunderstood the drop rules imo.
    Of course he didn't know he was breaking the rule, but that's his fault for not knowing the rules.

    It is outrageous that he was not disqualified. The new rule that allowed a disqualification to be turned into a 2 stroke penalty was supposed to cover a situation where the rule violation was only obvious on television, and specifically those situations where a ball moved in such a way that a player or official could not reasonably have seen it, but a viewer watching on an HD television could. The real reason for the rule change was that there was an unfair situation--because famous players and leaders are being broadcast in HD far more than other players, they were potentially at far greater risk for disqualification due to minute ball movements than other players. The real purpose of the rule was to level the playing field.

    All of this is irrelevant in this case; Tiger admitted to breaking the rule, and in any event it wasn't close or even arguable that the rule was broken. It is unfortunate, but golf is not like other sports where the officials' ruling is final. The players are supposed to have integrity and police themselves. I have always liked Tiger, and his personal problems were none of my business, but I will lose all respect for him if he steps back onto the course.

    As a separate matter, I tend to think pulling out of the tourney would be a lot better for his brand and reputation. And it's ironic that there was just that controversy about his "Winning Solves Everything" ad--because in fact it won't solve this problem at all. There will be a huge * next to this win, if he were somehow to pull it out.

  4. #123
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    Outrageous? Seems like hyperbole to me. He gained no advantage by what he did. Had he not said anything, we wouldn't even be discussing this. He dropped his ball within a few feet of the other one.

    It's a really poorly worded rule. "As close as possible" is about as ambiguous as it gets. It should be clear how far you can drop the ball. Why is it that so many of the other drop rules are based on club lengths, but this one is so vague? He dropped it pretty close to a yard from his divot. If we were having a discussion about this rule here, but before anything like this happened, how different would opinions be. If a scenario was brought up where a player dropped a ball 3-4 feet from the original, would anyone feel like that's outrageous?

    Most pros play drivers that are 42-43 inches. That's 3.5 feet. That's pretty close to how far Tiger dropped his ball. I think he could make an argument that 2 yards is as close as possible. You never know how the ball is going to bounce once dropped. If you go much closer than that, you risk the ball dropping into the existing divot.

    I think it's silly it's causing this much outrage. The guy hit a near perfect shot that wound up in the water by just bad luck. He put a ball down within a few feet and hit another shot. There was no advantage gained by where he dropped the ball. If you want to call that cheating, then that's your choice. I even think a 2 stroke penalty is disproportionately punitive for the level of infraction this is. If he drops the ball a few inches closer, it's fine. But somehow he drops it inches further than what some deem "as close as possible" and now he is 2 full strokes worse than before? Something isn't right with this picture.

    And I'd be making the same argument regardless of what player it is. And if you think Augusta is giving Tiger preferential treatment, then you just don't know Augusta.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  5. #124
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    How well he hit the shot that hit the pin has zero relavance to this discussion.

  6. #125
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    Of course he didn't know he was breaking the rule, but that's his fault for not knowing the rules.

    It is outrageous that he was not disqualified. The new rule that allowed a disqualification to be turned into a 2 stroke penalty was supposed to cover a situation where the rule violation was only obvious on television, and specifically those situations where a ball moved in such a way that a player or official could not reasonably have seen it, but a viewer watching on an HD television could. The real reason for the rule change was that there was an unfair situation--because famous players and leaders are being broadcast in HD far more than other players, they were potentially at far greater risk for disqualification due to minute ball movements than other players. The real purpose of the rule was to level the playing field.

    All of this is irrelevant in this case; Tiger admitted to breaking the rule, and in any event it wasn't close or even arguable that the rule was broken. It is unfortunate, but golf is not like other sports where the officials' ruling is final. The players are supposed to have integrity and police themselves. I have always liked Tiger, and his personal problems were none of my business, but I will lose all respect for him if he steps back onto the course.

    As a separate matter, I tend to think pulling out of the tourney would be a lot better for his brand and reputation. And it's ironic that there was just that controversy about his "Winning Solves Everything" ad--because in fact it won't solve this problem at all. There will be a huge * next to this win, if he were somehow to pull it out.
    They knew about the possible violation and cleared him though, so he signed what he believed was a correct scorecard. Had they told him he made an incorrect drop he wouldn't have signed that scorecard, they would have adjusted for the penalty first.

    Isn't that the point of this rule? To prevent DQs like this from happening?

    I don't see what the problem is.

  7. #126
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Nice post MWM. I'd love to see Tiger go low today and get back in it just to frustrate people.

    I like Tiger but I was thinking and this would be funny.

    If shoots like 73 today, he'll probably come out tonight and say "After further self reflection I have determined that regarding yesterday's infraction the right thing for me to do is withdraw from the event."


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  8. #127
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    The fact that this is such a polarizing issue is just more evidence of how golf needs to overhaul it's rules entirely. Seriously, does anyone think that something like this should disqualify someone from a tournament? If it were not Tiger, and just some random golfer in a random tournament, would so many be thinking that the player should definitely be DQ'ed? I doubt it.

    You can argue that based on the rules and how things have played out in the past, that he should have been DQ'ed. I don't agree, but I can see it. But if we were just looking at the sport and trying to decide what is reasonable and what isn't without regard for how the rules were originally written, would anyone look at a scenario like this and think a rule needs to be written to make sure that this scenario would take someone from in contention to win a big tournament to completely disqualified? That just seems asinine to me.

    One thing that some are missing is that the rules officials looked at video of Tiger's drop when he was playing the 18th hole. They concluded that it was a legal drop. It wasn't until his comments that they decided it wasn't legal. Hunter Mahan commented that he didn't think Tiger should be DQ'ed because no rules officials questioned the drop before he had a chance to sign his scorecard. I don't think it's fair that a simple comment made in an interview resulted in 2 strokes being added to his score. This whole thing is just dumb, IMO.

    So the rules officials looked at the drop without any noise from the outside and had no problem with it. Now all of a sudden it's an outrage that he's playing at all, even though 2 strokes in that situation is an incredibly severe penalty for something where no advantage was gained? This makes no sense to me.

    Honestly, how close does it have to be to be considered "as close as possible". Is it 6 inches, a foot, a yard, etc....? I think one could argue that 2 yards falls within the parameters of the rule and that in his mind that was as close as possible. No other sport would even be having this conversation. The fact that it's causing this much outrage is not a great reflection on the sport, IMO.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  9. #128
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Outrageous? Seems like hyperbole to me. He gained no advantage by what he did. Had he not said anything, we wouldn't even be discussing this. He dropped his ball within a few feet of the other one.

    It's a really poorly worded rule. "As close as possible" is about as ambiguous as it gets. It should be clear how far you can drop the ball. Why is it that so many of the other drop rules are based on club lengths, but this one is so vague? He dropped it pretty close to a yard from his divot. If we were having a discussion about this rule here, but before anything like this happened, how different would opinions be. If a scenario was brought up where a player dropped a ball 3-4 feet from the original, would anyone feel like that's outrageous?

    Most pros play drivers that are 42-43 inches. That's 3.5 feet. That's pretty close to how far Tiger dropped his ball. I think he could make an argument that 2 yards is as close as possible. You never know how the ball is going to bounce once dropped. If you go much closer than that, you risk the ball dropping into the existing divot.

    I think it's silly it's causing this much outrage. The guy hit a near perfect shot that wound up in the water by just bad luck. He put a ball down within a few feet and hit another shot. There was no advantage gained by where he dropped the ball. If you want to call that cheating, then that's your choice. I even think a 2 stroke penalty is disproportionately punitive for the level of infraction this is. If he drops the ball a few inches closer, it's fine. But somehow he drops it inches further than what some deem "as close as possible" and now he is 2 full strokes worse than before? Something isn't right with this picture.

    And I'd be making the same argument regardless of what player it is. And if you think Augusta is giving Tiger preferential treatment, then you just don't know Augusta.
    He took no advantage but yet he himself outlined why it was an advantage. I don't understand your post.

    He knowingly gained an advantage and broke a rule. He therefore knew he was signing the wrong card. He should withdraw.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  10. #129
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    He took no advantage but yet he himself outlined why it was an advantage. I don't understand your post.

    He knowingly gained an advantage and broke a rule. He therefore knew he was signing the wrong card. He should withdraw.
    You're honestly suggesting that when he signed his card, he knew it was wrong, but he signed it anyway? I don't understand that at all.

    He wasn't explaining why it was an advantage. He was simply telling you his thought process. He never suggested it was an advantage. That's your extrapolation. The shot he hit was no different than had he dropped an inch from his previous one. That's what is meant by advantage. It didn't change the shot.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  11. #130
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    I missed the part where he knowingly broke a rule. He never said that did he? Breaking a rule on purpose to cheat is different than not knowing you're breaking a rule. Especially when the initial review determines that it was a legal drop.

  12. #131
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    I think people are missing the fact that they really had no choice but to not DQ him. With them reviewing the drop before he finished the round and coming to the conclusion that it was a legal drop, it would have been completely unfair to come back and DQ him. Then THEY would have been responsible.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  13. #132
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    You're honestly suggesting that when he signed his card, he knew it was wrong, but he signed it anyway? I don't understand that at all.

    He wasn't explaining why it was an advantage. He was simply telling you his thought process. He never suggested it was an advantage. That's your extrapolation. The shot he hit was no different than had he dropped an inch from his previous one. That's what is meant by advantage. It didn't change the shot.
    You are confusing two issues (and people often confuse these 2 issues when discussing the law). You are right that he almost certainly did not know that what he had done was against the rules.* However, he did know that he had committed the act that was in violations of the rules--he just did not know it was against the rules.

    It is virtually never a defense to claim that you did not know that what you did was illegal. It is a defense to say that you didn't know you committed the act in question. So, if I dump garbage in my neighbor's lawn, but claim I was unaware that this was a crime, I am still liable (ignorance of the law is no excuse). If I am moving a ladder and accidentally knock over a garbage can, causing garbage to spill on my neighbor's lawn (and I don't see the garbage can fall over), then (in some cases) I have a defense if charged with illegal dumping, as I did not realize I had committed the act that violated the law.

    Here, Tiger admitted that he knowingly did not drop the ball as close as possible to his previous shot. Clearly, he thought that this was within the rules. He now realizes it was not. This has nothing to do with video replay or anything. He should disqualify himself.

    *Because we all know Tiger would never knowingly cheat... oh wait.

  14. #133
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    I think people are missing the fact that they really had no choice but to not DQ him. With them reviewing the drop before he finished the round and coming to the conclusion that it was a legal drop, it would have been completely unfair to come back and DQ him. Then THEY would have been responsible.
    I haven't seen anything suggesting that officials confirmed to him that the drop was correct before he signed his scorecard. But if that is correct then why give him a 2 stroke penalty?

  15. #134
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    I haven't seen anything suggesting that officials confirmed to him that the drop was correct before he signed his scorecard. But if that is correct then why give him a 2 stroke penalty?
    Their official statement says they ruled it was a legal drop while he was on 18.

  16. #135
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    Re: 2013 Golf Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    You are confusing two issues (and people often confuse these 2 issues when discussing the law). You are right that he almost certainly did not know that what he had done was against the rules.* However, he did know that he had committed the act that was in violations of the rules--he just did not know it was against the rules.

    It is virtually never a defense to claim that you did not know that what you did was illegal. It is a defense to say that you didn't know you committed the act in question. So, if I dump garbage in my neighbor's lawn, but claim I was unaware that this was a crime, I am still liable (ignorance of the law is no excuse). If I am moving a ladder and accidentally knock over a garbage can, causing garbage to spill on my neighbor's lawn (and I don't see the garbage can fall over), then (in some cases) I have a defense if charged with illegal dumping, as I did not realize I had committed the act that violated the law.

    Here, Tiger admitted that he knowingly did not drop the ball as close as possible to his previous shot. Clearly, he thought that this was within the rules. He now realizes it was not. This has nothing to do with video replay or anything. He should disqualify himself.

    *Because we all know Tiger would never knowingly cheat... oh wait.
    I understand the difference. Obviously, the rules officials of the game of golf disagree with you. They don't think he should be DQ'ed.

    I'm not arguing the actual rules themselves, but how outrage makes no sense given the entire scenario. The rules themselves are asinine. They should be changed, and this is why. It's an ambiguous rule and I think he could make the case that even with his comments, it would still fit within the rule using a standard of reasonableness. If you know the law so well, you also know that ambiguously written laws are not always open to interpretation and a standard of reasonableness generally applies.

    Before his comments, they thought his drop was legal. So they looked at the evidence and thought his drop fit within the language of "as close as possible". That's an awfully difficult piece of evidence to get around if the very people there to interpret the rules said he did nothing wrong. What if he would have said 1 yard instead of 2? What if he would have said a few feet? Why is it that 2 yards all of sudden makes it glaringly obvious that he broke the rule and it's somehow outrageous that he would still play in the tournament.

    Seriously, the DQ rules in golf are ridiculous. I've been saying as much on here for years. Why should something like that make a guy not even be able to play in the tournament. There's a reason the USGA made an attempt to amend the rule.
    Last edited by MWM; 04-13-2013 at 01:23 PM.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David


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