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Thread: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

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  1. #1
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    Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    11. Billy Hamilton
    51. Robert Stephenson
    66. Tony Cingrani

    No Corcino is a bit of a surprise, you could also make a case for Jesse Winker

  2. #2
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    I'm a little surprised myself that Corcino didn't make it. Jesse Winker only played short season ball so he wouldn't be on the list.

  3. #3
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    I'm a little surprised myself that Corcino didn't make it. Jesse Winker only played short season ball so he wouldn't be on the list.
    There were quite a few guys in short season ball on the list.

    I am always skeptical on the MLB.com lists because of the way that they are generated.

    I can't say exactly how the Top 100 is generated, but the Top 50 is generated by Jonathan Mayo asking scouts/baseball professionals of other types for their personal Top 30 lists and then assigning them points (30 points for a first place vote and 1 point for a 30th place vote).

    Ideally, everyone polled could have the exact same #31 prospect and he never shows up on the list, but one guy polled could be in love with a guy and rank him 15th and no one else would have had him in their Top 50, but that guy is considered a better prospect in this kind of system.

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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    I'm a little surprised myself that Corcino didn't make it. Jesse Winker only played short season ball so he wouldn't be on the list.
    I'm sure there were probably guys like that on the list. Winker isn't the freak athlete and doesn't have glowing draft position to his name though, so he'll probably have to prove himself a bit more. He'll get his share of love if he keeps hitting like he did last year.

  5. #5
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    ^very much agree

    Also, i wouldn't expect to see tons of reds players on the list in the coming years or for the reds overall system to be ranked to highly. That is unless Walt has changed his style of building teams. His MO in st louis wasn't really to build from within once he got his team, and in the end i think that is what led to his dismissal. For the sake of the reds long term success i hope he has changed his opinion on that.
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 01-29-2013 at 11:24 PM.

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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Seven pennants in 13 years isn't a poor MO, Dude. That's flat getting it done.

    BTW, the Cardinals' system was one of the most productive in the game under Jocketty.
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  7. #7
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    No it wasn't. Before an argument starts please look at every cardinals draft from 2000-2007. They were absolutly awful. With the exception of Yadi there were no impact position players to be drafted and come through the system under Walt in a normal amount of time. Yes jay and Craig were drafted by walt but neither was a major league starter till they were 27.

    You make alot of valid points when we talk, but when Walt Jocketty left st. louis he left a minor league system that was in shambles.

    Also, i didn't say he had a poor MO is said that while he was in STL it wasn't his MO to build from within, especially in the last few years. That point is undeniable.

    Impactful players drafted by Walt with cards from 2000-2007 (by impactful, i mean starters): Jon Jay, Allen Craig, Colby Rasmus, JAime Garcia, Dan Haren, Yadi.

    2 of those didn't amount to anything with the cards, and rasmus won't be a starter for long. Garcia has had one good year and one mediocre year. That production from 7 years of drafting is not "flat getting it done"
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 01-29-2013 at 11:44 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    No it wasn't. Before an argument starts please look at every cardinals draft from 2000-2007. They were absolutly awful. With the exception of Yadi there were no impact position players to be drafted and come through the system under Walt in a normal amount of time. Yes jay and Craig were drafted by walt but neither was a major league starter till they were 27.

    You make alot of valid points when we talk, but when Walt Jocketty left st. louis he left a minor league system that was in shambles.

    Also, i didn't say he had a poor MO is said that while he was in STL it wasn't his MO to build from within, especially in the last few years. That point is undeniable.

    Impactful players drafted by Walt with cards from 2000-2007 (by impactful, i mean starters): Jon Jay, Allen Craig, Colby Rasmus, JAime Garcia, Dan Haren, Yadi.

    2 of those didn't amount to anything with the cards, and rasmus won't be a starter for long. Garcia has had one good year and one mediocre year. That production from 7 years of drafting is not "flat getting it done"
    You're right, his drafts from that period didn't amount to much. But most of that was due to draft position. A team that is in contention for 14 years is going to be at the end of the draft for most of those years. Sure, he didn't have a lot of hits, but he really didn't miss a lot of guys either. The good ones were gone most of the time when the Cardinal name was called on draft day.

    Btw, Freese was acquired in 2007. Pretty sure Jocketty made that trade. But, again. He's not a player from the draft, which makes your point.
    Last edited by 757690; 01-30-2013 at 12:22 AM.
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    All-Star players drafted and/or developed during Jocketty's tenure as Card GM:

    JD Drew
    Placido Polanco
    Rick Ankiel
    Matt Morris
    Albert Pujols
    Dan Haren
    Yadi Molina
    Adam Wainwright
    Colby Rasmus
    David Freese
    Jaime Garcia
    Lance Lynn

    That's around 40 All-Star berths, fwiw, a few MVPs, a couple WS MVPs, a Cy Young, and a couple ROY.
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  10. #10
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    All-Star players drafted and/or developed during Jocketty's tenure as Card GM:

    JD Drew
    Placido Polanco
    Rick Ankiel
    Matt Morris
    Albert Pujols
    Dan Haren
    Yadi Molina
    Adam Wainwright
    Colby Rasmus
    David Freese
    Jaime Garcia
    Lance Lynn

    That's around 40 All-Star berths, fwiw, a few MVPs, a couple WS MVPs, a Cy Young, and a couple ROY.
    david freese had nothing to do with jocketty. That was a mozeliak move. Lance Lynn was not developed by Jocketty. Lance Lynn was drafted by mozeliak in 2008.

    Polanco, Drew, Ankiel, Pujols, and Morris were all drafted before 2000. Ankiel is also not an impact mlb player. Like i said in other convos we've had, Please read what i am writing. Ive said the whole time that his post 2000 draft history with the cardinals was awful. It was. Undeniable.

    Jocketty was the architect of the cardinals rise in the early to mid 2000's and the architect of its regression between 2006 and 2010. With the trough of the regression coming in 2007. After the retirements of Walker and Sanders their were no in house replacements for them and the cards had no prsopects that they could trade to acquire new outfielders. Outfield is only one example of this.

    Though the cards won the world series in 2006 everyone know that they were at best a mediocre team. The cards won 100 games in both '04 and '05. 83 in '06 and then 78 in '07. In those two years Jocketty's major acquisitions and call ups were: Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Larry Bigbie, Scott Spezio, Adam Wainwright, Juan Encarnacion, Aaron Miles, Braden Looper, Mike Maroth, Joel Pineiro, John Rodrigues, Ronnie Beliard, Jeff WEaver, and Ludwick

    Outside of Weaver, Spezio, and Reyes playing out of their minds in '06 playoffs, like whole team, the only one who has been a mainstay productive mlb starter is Adam Wainwright. Luddy has had one great season in '08, a mediocre one in '09, two awful ones in '10 and '11 and then a very good one in '12. Therefore, he does not count as a mainstay productive MLB starter.

    Jocketty has done an impressive job with the reds, especially this past season. But Jocketty left the cardinals in '07 with Carpenter and Wainwright the only starting pitchers that could be counted on. Pujols and Yadi the only reliable infielders. And nothing in the outfield except for Ankiel who was good for one season. On top of that the only player in the farm system of any Renown was Rasmus.

    Jocketty, with the reds, had nothing to do with any of your current young players as far as drafting goes. Mez, Frazier, and Cozart were all '07 before he was with them. Bruce the year before and obviously votto before that. He signed Chapman, and an eception is Leake, sorry. but i don't even think he will be anything more than an inning eating reliever anyway. He did, however, trade away his young talent for Latos and Choo Which is very similar to what he did in St. louis ex: Haren for Mulder. Mortenson for Walker. Polanco for Rolen. It is his MO. undeniable.
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 01-30-2013 at 12:43 AM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    david freese had nothing to do with jocketty. That was a mozeliak move. Lance Lynn was not developed by Jocketty. Lance Lynn was drafted by mozeliak in 2008.
    I'm wrong about Lynn and Freese. The rest, however, are all All-Stars drafted or developed under Jocketty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    Polanco, Drew, Ankiel, Pujols, and Morris were all drafted before 2000. Ankiel is also not an impact mlb player. Like i said in other convos we've had, Please read what i am writing. Ive said the whole time that his post 2000 draft history with the cardinals was awful. It was. Undeniable.
    No, it's not undeniable. I'm denying it. Considering their drafting position, the Cardinals have done a great job drafting contributors. He won seven pennants and a World Series in 12 years as the Cardinal GM. He was responsible for drafting players who were picked as All-Stars almost 40 times in those years. What more do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    Jocketty was the architect of the cardinals rise in the early to mid 2000's and the architect of its regression between 2006 and 2010. With the trough of the regression coming in 2007. After the retirements of Walker and Sanders their were no in house replacements for them and the cards had no prsopects that they could trade to acquire new outfielders. Outfield is only one example of this.
    Regression? What regression? They won a World Series in that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    Though the cards won the world series in 2006 everyone know that they were at best a mediocre team. The cards won 100 games in both '04 and '05. 83 in '06 and then 78 in '07. In those two years Jocketty's major acquisitions and call ups were: Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Larry Bigbie, Scott Spezio, Adam Wainwright, Juan Encarnacion, Aaron Miles, Braden Looper, Mike Maroth, Joel Pineiro, John Rodrigues, Ronnie Beliard, Jeff WEaver.

    Outside of Weaver and Spezio playing out of their minds in '06 playoffs like whole team, the only one who that has been a mainstay productive mlb starter is Adam Wainwright.
    Again, he won the World Series so he gets credit for doing the right thing that year.

    So you're basically calling him out for one year, perhaps two. In a decade plus wherein he won seven pennants.

    That's a run stronger than any Red GM since the 1970s (and arguably just as strong as that run). It's a run as strong and long as any in the game aside from Atlanta's 90s run and the Yankees dominance from the 1920s until the early 60s.
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 01-30-2013 at 12:41 AM.
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  12. #12
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    All-Star players drafted and/or developed during Jocketty's tenure as Card GM:

    JD Drew
    Placido Polanco
    Rick Ankiel
    Matt Morris
    Albert Pujols
    Dan Haren
    Yadi Molina
    Adam Wainwright
    Colby Rasmus
    David Freese
    Jaime Garcia
    Lance Lynn

    That's around 40 All-Star berths, fwiw, a few MVPs, a couple WS MVPs, a Cy Young, and a couple ROY.
    What a flagrantly inaccurate post.

    Ankiel, Garcia, and Rasmus have never been all-stars. JD drew was an all star once, and that was long after he was with the cards. Polanco had two. none with the cardinals. And your math is WAYYYYYYY off. There are less than 25 all star births in that group and almost half are locked up in one player. As are all the MVP's. Only one WS mvp in Freese. And once again pujols claims the only ROY.

    Its helpful to take a look at baseball reference before stating an opinion as fact.

  13. #13
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    What a flagrantly inaccurate post.
    You're right. My math was way off (though flagrant is more than a little hyperbolic).

    Quick question: what other GM has been better than Jocketty in drafting All-Stars over the past 20 years or so?

    Another way to tackle this:

    If Jocketty were indeed a poor drafter, it should show up in his players inabilities to get to the major leagues, or, in the case of poor teams, perform poorly once they get there.

    This past season, Jocketty-acquired draftees and minor league, post-draft free agent signees had a WAR of 17.9 for the Cardinals. (Five years later, btw, he's still "responsible" for almost half the St. Louis WAR from last season.) I'll add other picks he made that are currently playing for other teams (Daric Barton, Colby Rasmus, Pujols, Adam Kennedy) and his Cincinnati first-round picks as well (ie., Leake, Grandal, Alonso). I also include Aroldis Chapman, as he was a free agent. That's another 16.0 WAR. To round out the team with 25 players, we'll add Brad Boxberger's -0.1 WAR last season in San Diego.

    That's a 25-man roster of players drafted/ developed under Jocketty with a WAR of 33.8.

    I suspect few other GMs will come close to that. He's certainly in the top five.

    (Fwiw, the entire Red team had a WAR of 48.3 last season.)

    In short, Jocketty's tenure as a GM has shown an ability to draft well, trade well, and sign intelligently. He's a true triple threat GM and the Reds are lucky to have him. Jocketty is pretty much universally held as an upper echelon GM. His three Executive of the Year trophies corroborate that.
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  14. #14
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    You're right. My math was way off (though flagrant is more than a little hyperbolic).

    Quick question: what other GM has been better than Jocketty in drafting All-Stars over the past 20 years or so?

    Another way to tackle this:

    If Jocketty were indeed a poor drafter, it should show up in his players inabilities to get to the major leagues, or, in the case of poor teams, perform poorly once they get there.

    This past season, Jocketty-acquired draftees and minor league, post-draft free agent signees had a WAR of 17.9 for the Cardinals. (Five years later, btw, he's still "responsible" for almost half the St. Louis WAR from last season.) I'll add other picks he made that are currently playing for other teams (Daric Barton, Colby Rasmus, Pujols, Adam Kennedy) and his Cincinnati first-round picks as well (ie., Leake, Grandal, Alonso). I also include Aroldis Chapman, as he was a free agent. That's another 16.0 WAR. To round out the team with 25 players, we'll add Brad Boxberger's -0.1 WAR last season in San Diego.

    That's a 25-man roster of players drafted/ developed under Jocketty with a WAR of 33.8.

    I suspect few other GMs will come close to that. He's certainly in the top five.

    (Fwiw, the entire Red team had a WAR of 48.3 last season.)

    In short, Jocketty's tenure as a GM has shown an ability to draft well, trade well, and sign intelligently. He's a true triple threat GM and the Reds are lucky to have him. Jocketty is pretty much universally held as an upper echelon GM. His three Executive of the Year trophies corroborate that.
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    n/m


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