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Thread: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

  1. #61
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Injuries.

    Middle reliever Josh Hancock died.
    Ace pitcher Chris Carpenter was on the DL all year (relatively) and had TJ surgery.
    Yadier Molina was put on the DL in May with a broken hand.
    Jim Edmonds, Tyler Johnson, and David Eckstein went on the DL in June. So did Braden Looper.
    Scott Rolen and Scott Speizio ended their seasons in August.

    That season, Brandon Ryan, Adam Wainwright, and Chris Duncan were all youngsters pressed into larger roles that thrived. Ryan was a rookie; Wainwright became a starter, and Duncan was a second-year guy.

    The Cardinals also lost four starting pitches to free agency from the year before.

    No team could withstand that amount of injuries.
    I think this is the biggest reason here. There was no way they could lose four starting pitchers and be competitive.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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  3. #62
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    And who did they get to replace them? Braden looper and todd wellemeyer. Y? No young pitching coming up.

  4. #63
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    The takaway is that no GM could have forseen the injuries and few farm systems in the history of the game could have weathered the twin storms of free agency and injuries for that year.

    To insist that it's Jocketty's fault somehow because he didn't have enough prospects pan out doesn't pass the smell test.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  5. #64
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    And who did they get to replace them? Braden looper and todd wellemeyer. Y? No young pitching coming up.
    When has any team EVER had 4 pitchers from the minor leagues all ready to step into the Majors at once?

  6. #65
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    My entire argument was that jocketty never brought up "impactful" young players. You brought up duncan and ryan were young players he brought up but you forgot about anthony reyes. If these player were thriving young talent why is only 1 still in the majors, and a no hit roll player at that.

    Ryan was 27 his rookie year. Duncan was never a tremendous hitter in the minors and reyes, well his 2007 season speaks for itself

    2011 waino missed the season team wins 90 games
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 01-31-2013 at 02:17 PM.

  7. #66
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    When has any team EVER had 4 pitchers from the minor leagues all ready to step into the Majors at once?
    Probably never. But jocketty didnt have any position players on the farm that he could trade for good pitching either. The farm was EMPTY which left the big club completely hamstrung.

    # of cardinals in rankings top 100 in 2007:2, 2006: 1, 2005:1 (Reyes, the same gut from '06) 2004: 2

    thats bad. very bad

    2007 and 2006 are Baseball america

    2005 is baseball think factory

    2004 is rotoworld. Wanted them all to be BA but couldn't find them going back that far.
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 01-31-2013 at 03:00 PM.

  8. #67
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Also, jocketty signed all those pitchers whos contracts ended at the same time. He knew when their contracts were up and he wasnt prepared

  9. #68
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Wherever Jocketty goes, he's in "win now" mode. The '94 Cardinals team he inherited wasn't exactly lighting up the scoreboard. Next thing you know, he was trading for established veterans and defensive stalwarts like Royce Clayton, Dennis Eckersley, Jim Edmonds, Chuck Finley, Darryl Kile, Steve Kline, Mark McGwire, Darren Oliver, Edgar Renteria, Scott Rolen, Todd Stottlemyre, Fernando Tatis, Fernando Vina, Woody Williams.

    Combined with key free agent signings like Andy Benes, Kent Bottenfield, Eric Davis, Delino DeShields, Tonny Fossas, Gary Gaetti, Ron Gant, Jason Isringhausen, and Tino Martinez, he was able to put together some great teams.

    And all that winning was accomplished with mediocre drafting and development. Jocketty's specialty was knowing when to give up on players and when to give them another shot. Fortunately, the Reds are looking like they're much better at drafting and developing players than the Cardinals were during his tenure (with the exception of Pujols, of course). As long as they can keep that up, I see no reason to think Jocketty won't be able to keep up with the Joneses and continue winning.

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    jwdoc77 (01-31-2013), MikeThierry (01-31-2013)

  11. #69
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Camis, I agree with you there. I believe that what he did in 1996 was one of the best GM jobs in the past two decades.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

    Mike Shannon

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    camisadelgolf (01-31-2013)

  13. #70
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Unfortunately, '96 was a couple years before my time. But i do believe jocketty is one the top GMs in the game and always loved him in St. Louis. But all good things do come to an end and i think it was time for him to go when he was fired.

    Ill also say this for jocketty, the second he was gone Bill Dewitt actually opened up his pocket book.
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 01-31-2013 at 09:08 PM.

  14. #71
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Ill also say this for jocketty, the second he was gone Bill Dewitt actually opened up his pocket book.
    Key point. Just as it should be acknowledged that Castellini has done the same lately, giving WJ an opportunity to build a consistent winner.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  15. #72
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    The one thing to like about the three guys in this top 100 is they all look like keepers. We might see Corcino in other top 100s, but I'm not sure it's better to keep him or to move him. Yonder Alonso was a top 100 prospect and I never viewed him as a keeper (and not just because Joey Votto was the team's 1B). Now there's nothing wrong with having trade bait on hand, but it's better to have legit players.

    One other thing to keep in mind is that, even though he's no longer a top prospect, the Reds are still waiting on Mes to establish himself. So if the team adds a CF and C to the All-Universe 1B, the 2012 rookies at SS and 3B, the 26 year-old power hitting RF and the cagey vet at 2B, the only real position that's going to need attention in the coming years is LF.

    The system basically has three years to load up for any kind of retooling on the position player side. And the rotation is chock full of young arms too. Hopefully when new position players are needed, Winker is leading the next wave.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  17. #73
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    The one thing to like about the three guys in this top 100 is they all look like keepers. We might see Corcino in other top 100s, but I'm not sure it's better to keep him or to move him. Yonder Alonso was a top 100 prospect and I never viewed him as a keeper (and not just because Joey Votto was the team's 1B). Now there's nothing wrong with having trade bait on hand, but it's better to have legit players.

    One other thing to keep in mind is that, even though he's no longer a top prospect, the Reds are still waiting on Mes to establish himself. So if the team adds a CF and C to the All-Universe 1B, the 2012 rookies at SS and 3B, the 26 year-old power hitting RF and the cagey vet at 2B, the only real position that's going to need attention in the coming years is LF.

    The system basically has three years to load up for any kind of retooling on the position player side. And the rotation is chock full of young arms too. Hopefully when new position players are needed, Winker is leading the next wave.
    Some great points. Totally agree that Mez and Hamilton are the big keys. If they develop more in line with their optimistic projections, then the Reds lack of top positional prospects isn't too big of a deal. If they provide above average production on the cheap, then it should be easy to afford to fill LF with mid level free agents until someone emerges from the minors.

    Being able to fill half of the 8 position spots with inexpensive guys like Mes, Hanilton, Frazier and Cozart if they produce like expensive guys makes the GM job pretty easy.

  18. #74
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    What I don't understand is the huge gap between Hamilton and Eaton. Both have blazing speed, the only difference is that Eaton didn't have a manager letting him run almost every time he reached base. Otherwise, he has more power, better contact skills, and already great defense at a position Hamilton is just now learning. So, yeah...97? That seems a bit absurd.
    Last edited by Ohayou; 02-05-2013 at 09:15 PM.
    Choo got it, dude.

  19. #75
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohayou View Post
    What I don't understand is the huge gap between Hamilton and Eaton. Both have blazing speed, the only difference is that Eaton didn't have a manager letting him run almost every time he reached base. Otherwise, he has more power, better contact skills, and already great defense at a position Hamilton is just now learning. So, yeah...97? That seems a bit absurd.
    Eaton doesn't have anything like Hamilton's speed. Almost no one in baseball does.

    People who've never sprinted don't realize how huge a 0.2 second gap is. And if you're not that fast it isn't that large, but among fast people that's well over a body length. Hamilton's gaining extra feet in a game of inches.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.


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