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Thread: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

  1. #16
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    All-Star players drafted and/or developed during Jocketty's tenure as Card GM:

    JD Drew
    Placido Polanco
    Rick Ankiel
    Matt Morris
    Albert Pujols
    Dan Haren
    Yadi Molina
    Adam Wainwright
    Colby Rasmus
    David Freese
    Jaime Garcia
    Lance Lynn

    That's around 40 All-Star berths, fwiw, a few MVPs, a couple WS MVPs, a Cy Young, and a couple ROY.
    What a flagrantly inaccurate post.

    Ankiel, Garcia, and Rasmus have never been all-stars. JD drew was an all star once, and that was long after he was with the cards. Polanco had two. none with the cardinals. And your math is WAYYYYYYY off. There are less than 25 all star births in that group and almost half are locked up in one player. As are all the MVP's. Only one WS mvp in Freese. And once again pujols claims the only ROY.

    Its helpful to take a look at baseball reference before stating an opinion as fact.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    Finally, if you read my very first post it says, "Unless he changed his opinion on the draft." MY whole point was that i hope he doesn't end up neglecting the reds farm system as he did the cardinals.
    I've never followed the Cardinals all that closely because they're icky, but I don't think results necessarily indicate priorities with something as volatile as the MLB draft. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. And like Doug said, Buckley and the scouting crew are basically running the draft, not Jocketty.

  4. #18
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    And bernanke runs the fed while geitner runs the treasury but the economy is blamed on obama. Jocketty oversees player transactions, after the first three years of bad drafts he should have made a change.

  5. #19
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    And bernanke runs the fed while geitner runs the treasury but the economy is blamed on obama. Jocketty oversees player transactions, after the first three years of bad drafts he should have made a change.
    And under Jocketty, the Reds farm system has been fantastic. It has produced. Big time. While I don't think he has much to do with it at all other than keeping Buckley and his crew in place when he took over, you want to give or take credit from the GM for the farm. So let's answer this question: What is more important, the 5 most recent years of Jocketty's farm system or the time before that when trying to figure out what it will do moving forward?

  6. #20
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    And as i said earlier he had good drafts starting out with the cards and then traded his young talent to build a great club, as he has been doing with the reds, and then all of the sudden when he needed a farm system it wasn't there. I was drawing parallels and said i was hoping he learned from his time in stl.

  7. #21
    Member Superdude's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    And as i said earlier he had good drafts starting out with the cards and then traded his young talent to build a great club, as he has been doing with the reds, and then all of the sudden when he needed a farm system it wasn't there. I was drawing parallels and said i was hoping he learned from his time in stl.
    He has traded young talent, but it's been almost entirely superfluous talent. Alonso, Grandal, Wood, etc. had no place on this team. He's leveraged the farm perfectly so far IMO.

  8. #22
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    As he did in stl. Once again. Parallels. One day johnny cueto and latos are gonna cost close to 20mil a piece. Alot of these reds are.gonna get real expensive. Especially when you really want to sign someone but you cant because youre paying 38 yr old votto 26 mil per.

    Jocketty can learn from his time in st louis and make sure he keeps a strong organizational base or he can start signing aging and underperforming players, hoping they have a rennaissance, like he started doing after '05.

    Hoping he doesnt do the latter twice is something reds fans should agree with

  9. #23
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    n/m

  10. #24
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    As he did in stl. Once again. Parallels. One day johnny cueto and latos are gonna cost close to 20mil a piece. Alot of these reds are.gonna get real expensive. Especially when you really want to sign someone but you cant because youre paying 38 yr old votto 26 mil per.

    Jocketty can learn from his time in st louis and make sure he keeps a strong organizational base or he can start signing aging and underperforming players, hoping they have a rennaissance, like he started doing after '05.

    Hoping he doesnt do the latter twice is something reds fans should agree with
    I'm a big Jocketty fan -- have generally given him As on the little grade 'em polls we do here, but I do appreciate Salukifan's perspective here. What Jocketty has done recently is similar to what he did in St. Louis, and it's true that the Cards' farm dried up. In the end, I'm not that concerned. Peaks and vallies happen, and the Reds' window will not be open forever. The question becomes, has he built an organization that can avoid going into another long swoon, whenever fortunes change?
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  11. #25
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    I agree with the sentiment that Jocketty didn't draft well post 2000. It was in fact the reason why he was let go or left. The organization hired Mozeliak in part to oversee the draft because Dewitt wanted a stronger drafting system. Mozeliak, along with Jeff Lunow, really took over the draft and Jocketty felt this undermined his power (which honestly it did).

    One thing I will give Jocketty credit for is recognizing that the Cardinals could spend money and that he was a good "salesman", so to speak. Jocketty was able to make impact trades because he knew the Cardinals could cover the costs of getting those players. He was also very good at selling players to other teams to get trades done. Looking at what he's accomplished in Cincy, it looks like he's adapted his tactics to the type of financial situation he sees in Cincy. In this respect, it what makes him a good GM. Being successful using two different philosophies.

    That said, as a Cardinals fan I love what Mozeliak has done with this organization. He's a hybrid type GM using modern saber statistics in his evaluation but still has an "old school approach". I certainly can't argue against what he's done in the draft. Baseball America recently came out with their top 100 prospects and the Cards had 6 players in the top 100, 2 of which are in the top 25, and Taveras was ranked #3 in baseball I believe. In 2011, the Cardinals used 12 or so different rookies and won the WS. I liked Jocketty here and he was very successful. However Mozeliak has made a mark in his own right in my opinion.

    EDIT: What should also be noted is that Mozeliak has completely rebuilt the Cardinals farm system into one of the best, if not the best system in baseball, while not drafting very high.

    EDIT#2: One other thought I had on this is that both Jocketty and Mozeliak had to also deal with arguably the most powerful manager in baseball the majority of their time in St. Louis. Tony LaRussa had a ton of power, more than most, in determining what type of players he wanted for the team. He wasn't the kind of manager who would put up with a player just handed to him by the General manager. The GM's had to walk a fine line between manager input and their view of how the ball club should be run. In many ways, Jocketty and Mozeliak should be commended and given praise for the internal pressure brought on by TLR all those years.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 01-30-2013 at 09:30 AM.
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  12. #26
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    The good news is that aside from Hamilton, Cingrani and Corcino, almost all of the potential impact talent in the Reds system is A ball and below (or under 21). That fits well with the timeframe of the big league guys hitting FA and/or moving on.

    For instance, one of Cueto/Latos will leave. They can be replaced by Stephenson.
    One of Bailey/Leake will likely leave. They can be replaced by one of Cingrani/Corcino.

    After that the future is a lot more murky, although hopefully some of the really young guys like Winker, Reynoso, Rahier, Rosa, Travieso, Romano and Constante can hopefully be in a position to contribute.
    Last edited by Benihana; 01-30-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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  13. #27
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Mike i agree with you. What Mozeliak and crew have done is pretty amazing imo. The cardinals organization has been in transition mode since 2007. The fact that mozeliak has kept the cards compettitive, let alone winning a world series, is nothing short of remarkable, especially since he has been doing it during a transition period.

  14. #28
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    Mike i agree with you. What Mozeliak and crew have done is pretty amazing imo. The cardinals organization has been in transition mode since 2007. The fact that mozeliak has kept the cards compettitive, let alone winning a world series, is nothing short of remarkable, especially since he has been doing it during a transition period.
    I agree with you about the transition period. They are sort of in their "hold down the fort" mentality as they transitioned out of the Pujols era. For a couple of years now, they were waiting for guys like Miller, Rosenthal, Wong, and Taveras to hit the major league roster. I think Taveras is a year away still considering that Beltran is still in the outfield but I wouldn't be shocked if Kolten Wong wins the job from Daniel Descalso in spring training and both Shelby Miller and Trevor Rosenthal has already made an impact on their roster. Carlos Martinez, who doesn't get talked about much, might actually be the best pitching prospect the Cards have and he's probably two years away.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  15. #29
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Funny, I was just looking at the arch of the organization over the next 3 years this morning. Even funnier, I was prompted by this quote by Jason Parks:

    Jason Parks ‏@ProfessorParks

    I'm working on the #Cardinals prospect list at present, and my hand is cramping from writing role 6 (plus player) over and over and over....
    That will get a Reds fan paranoid.

    The Cards have Jay, Freese and Craig all batting .300/.370/.500 and they were all like 26 or 27 when they broke through, and they all had almost no attention from prospect rankings, and they all sound like the type of player that will continue to arrive and madden the NL Central. The Cardinals have seamlessly moved past the Pujols years and have done so with a relatively tight payroll approach.

    So I looked over the Reds roster, which is rock solid through 2015, btw. Then I looked over the minors, and it really isn't all that great on the offensive side of the ball, especially. After Hamilton (who still has some experience to gain), there won't be a meaningful addition to the roster for 2-3-4 years (although I do like some role players like Fellhauer, Lutz and H. Rodriguez).

    Cingrani and Corcino are arriving near enough to Arroyo, Latos, and Bailey's situations to help out, but after that it's another 2-3-4 years before we will have much reinforcements.

    But, that's why they play the games and that's why they draft. 2013-2015 IS the time to go all in, and the Reds have. Their roster is such that it can even withstand a few major injuries, as we saw last year. It will be a comfort when the tide rolls back into the upper minors by 2014-15, though. 2016 and beyond is setup nicely as well, and there will be time to find those top flight players until then to fill in the starting lineup. Lastly, of course, there are players that right now have not emerged, but probably will. For now, the Reds are stacked where it counts in Cincinnati and they are busy reloading where it matters a little less (except to those mavens in Dayton) in the minors.
    Last edited by mdccclxix; 01-30-2013 at 11:01 AM.

  16. #30
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

    Luckily for the Cards, when all their young talent is supposed to hit the market and be out of their price range they are going to get a new TV deal which could be, from what ive heard, 4 times the size of their current one.


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