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Thread: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

  1. #76
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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    I don't have his stats, but I thought that Navarro was a real threat at bat i 2012. I pictured myself as the opposing pitcher, and I did not want to face him.

    I recall some patient, productive at bats, and from both sides of the plate. I wish the Reds would have kept him -- despite his oft-mentioned defensive short comings mentioned in this space.

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  3. #77
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    To provide some context, Dioner Navarro is getting paid $1.75M by the Cubs this year.

  4. #78
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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownHero View Post

    He also has a solid catchers ERA and managing to get a 3.90 ERA out of the Rockies in 2010 while everyone else was 4.58, with far better pitching and not playing in Denver 2012 saw Devin Mesoraco at 4.19 catchers ERA and actually hit worse than Olivo but his OBP was better thanks to 4 IBB from playing in the NL.
    Catchers ERA is a stat that can't die fast enough. It is useless. It tells us nothing about the catcher. It tells us a lot about which pitchers that guy tends to catch. Catchers can make a difference, but you can't tell by looking at catchers ERA.

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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Catchers ERA is a stat that can't die fast enough. It is useless. It tells us nothing about the catcher. It tells us a lot about which pitchers that guy tends to catch. Catchers can make a difference, but you can't tell by looking at catchers ERA.
    If you have a guy who's a stud starters personal catcher sure it can skew the stats but It can be very useful if you dig into it deeper than just the pure black and white number on the surface.

    When you look at Homer last year he had a 3.95 ERA and a .274 BAA when Mesoraco was catching when Hanigan/Navarro was working with him it fell to 3.15 and .220. When you see major gaps in the numbers like this there tends to be something there. A veteran like Hanigan can guide a starter like Homer who has the stuff but isn't quite there yet to good games, while a lesser catcher or younger guys aren't able to pull it off.

    Hanigan after getting himself established at this level has taken Homer to the next level over the last 3 years.

    3.24/.238 with vs 8.42/.324 without in 10
    3.21/.231 with vs 6.80/.323 without in 11
    3.20/.223 with vs 3.89/.270 without in 12

    Those numbers also don't count the 1 hit over 7 IP with 10 K's in the playoffs that Hanigan lead Homer to, so its clear Ryan knows how to get the most out of Homer and I hope Dusty uses him and Homer together more than he did in 2012.

  7. #80
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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownHero View Post
    If you have a guy who's a stud starters personal catcher sure it can skew the stats but It can be very useful if you dig into it deeper than just the pure black and white number on the surface.

    When you look at Homer last year he had a 3.95 ERA and a .274 BAA when Mesoraco was catching when Hanigan/Navarro was working with him it fell to 3.15 and .220. When you see major gaps in the numbers like this there tends to be something there. A veteran like Hanigan can guide a starter like Homer who has the stuff but isn't quite there yet to good games, while a lesser catcher or younger guys aren't able to pull it off.

    Hanigan after getting himself established at this level has taken Homer to the next level over the last 3 years.

    3.24/.238 with vs 8.42/.324 without in 10
    3.21/.231 with vs 6.80/.323 without in 11
    3.20/.223 with vs 3.89/.270 without in 12

    Those numbers also don't count the 1 hit over 7 IP with 10 K's in the playoffs that Hanigan lead Homer to, so its clear Ryan knows how to get the most out of Homer and I hope Dusty uses him and Homer together more than he did in 2012.
    It doesn't actually tell us that. Do you really believe that a catcher has the ability to cut down 5 runs of ERA ('10) or even 3 runs ('11)?

    Hanigan is a fantastic defensive catcher, and he absolutely DOES help lower a pitchers ERA because he can frame pitches better than most other guys (Mesoraco, for the record, is also above-average at it according to 2012 metrics). But catchers ERA doesn't really do much for telling us how good/bad a catcher is. Justin Verlander throwing to ANY catcher is going to make his catchers ERA better than someone not having Verlander throw to him. Heck, take the Reds for example, simply looking at the two catchers ERA's would be silly. One guy got to catch Cueto and Latos and heading into the year everyone on the planet would have told you that they were the two best pitchers on the staff. The other guy got to catch Bailey and Leake, the two guys that going into the year would have probably gotten the most votes for "worst" pitchers in the rotation.

    Catchers can make a difference, but quoting catchers ERA isn't going to actually tell us if they are or not. There are far too many variables. Which pitchers did they catch more of versus the other guy. Did he randomly catch more away games and games on the West Coast that help him versus catching at home and in Coors/Cincinnati/Texas/Arizona?

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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It doesn't actually tell us that. Do you really believe that a catcher has the ability to cut down 5 runs of ERA ('10) or even 3 runs ('11)?
    The good catchers aren't cutting down a certain amount of runs off the ERA they are making the SP more consistent, helping with the running game and leading them out of jams and avoiding the blow ups. Homer has been in 74 games the last 3 years and its split 38 with Ryan and 36 without there are the stats.....

    3.22 ERA in 235 IP with a .231 batting average against with RH working with him, and without its 5.05 with a BAA of .288 in 214 IP.

    Are you trying to me that you think this is a random occurrence?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    One guy got to catch Cueto and Latos and heading into the year everyone on the planet would have told you that they were the two best pitchers on the staff.
    Latos worked with Mesoraco 3 times to start the year and we lost all 3, Mat's longest game was 5.2 and he gave up 8 ER. They went to Ryan in his 4th start and the last 30 starts with out DM he went 14-2 with a 3.11 ERA and a .222 BAA after 0-2 with a 8.22 ERA and a .328 BAA prior.
    Last edited by HometownHero; 02-02-2013 at 09:43 PM.

  9. #82
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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    What I am telling you is that catchers ERA sucks at telling you who is a good catcher and who isn't. Ryan Hanigan is better at catching than almost anyone in baseball, so it isn't a shock that guys are better with him. But have him catch the Rockies staff last year and his "catchers ERA" would have ballooned. Not because of their ballpark (well, some because of it), but because their pitching staff royally sucked. That is why catchers ERA sucks. It has a lot to do with the pitchers and a small amount with the catcher.

    Go find the #20 catchers ERA and the #30. Can you really tell who is the better defensive catcher between them by looking at it? What about #20 and #40? No, you can't. There is nowhere near enough information in there to tell you about the production of the catcher.

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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Ryan Hanigan is better at catching than almost anyone in baseball, so it isn't a shock that guys are better with him.
    Think about this statement in relation to Mesoraco. What it tells me is that Hanigan should get a lot of playing time, with a backup to fill in maybe a third of the time (at most). If it's up to me, I do not relegate Mesoraco to that role again in 2013. That's called wasting valuable development time. I'd have him playing everyday in AAA. In my opinion, it gives him a better chance of being a viable replacement for Hanigan if Hanigan departs after 2013.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  11. #84
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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    What I am telling you is that catchers ERA sucks at telling you who is a good catcher and who isn't. Ryan Hanigan is better at catching than almost anyone in baseball, so it isn't a shock that guys are better with him. But have him catch the Rockies staff last year and his "catchers ERA" would have ballooned. Not because of their ballpark (well, some because of it), but because their pitching staff royally sucked. That is why catchers ERA sucks. It has a lot to do with the pitchers and a small amount with the catcher.

    Go find the #20 catchers ERA and the #30. Can you really tell who is the better defensive catcher between them by looking at it? What about #20 and #40? No, you can't. There is nowhere near enough information in there to tell you about the production of the catcher.
    ERA has significant problems. Then break things down to smaller sample sizes, and ERA's problems are even worse.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #85
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    Where would it be possible to find the numbers of how our bullpen did with Hanigan vs Mesoraco last season?

  13. #86
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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    I can't stand Olivo's offensive game, and I fear he'll just become one of Dusty's blow-up dolls, taking at-bats away from Hanigan. I do think he'll most likely make the roster and get more playing time than he should.

    But . . . he gets credit for being one of the toughest guys ever to strap on the catching gear. Dude once passed a kidney stone during a game AND KEPT ON PLAYING: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big...urn=mlb,237573
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

  14. #87
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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili View Post
    I can't stand Olivo's offensive game, and I fear he'll just become one of Dusty's blow-up dolls, taking at-bats away from Hanigan. I do think he'll most likely make the roster and get more playing time than he should.

    But . . . he gets credit for being one of the toughest guys ever to strap on the catching gear. Dude once passed a kidney stone during a game AND KEPT ON PLAYING: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big...urn=mlb,237573
    Honestly, after you've been developing them for a while, passing one isn't usually a big deal. The greater pain is when they pass into the bladder, and the pain there can vary quite a bit.

    I've had more stones than I can count, starting in December 2000. Since November 2011, I haven't had a time when I haven't had one. I have two now. Sometimes they hurt so much you think you're going to die; sometimes they don't.

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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Miguel Olivo isn't a horrible option as a #3/#4 catcher, but he's a terrible option as a MLB catcher.

    And to answer who of those available catchers were a better option: Rod Barajas easily. Solid defensively.

    Olivo's only real redeemable quality is that he is willing to put on the catching gear, get down in a crouch, and make some effort at performing the catching function. But, don't mistake that for him being good at it.

    Bum

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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Quote Originally Posted by marcshoe View Post
    Honestly, after you've been developing them for a while, passing one isn't usually a big deal. The greater pain is when they pass into the bladder, and the pain there can vary quite a bit.

    I've had more stones than I can count, starting in December 2000. Since November 2011, I haven't had a time when I haven't had one. I have two now. Sometimes they hurt so much you think you're going to die; sometimes they don't.
    I felt like I was going to die and I hope I never have another one of those again!

  17. #90
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    Re: Reds sign C Miguel Olivo

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    I felt like I was going to die and I hope I never have another one of those again!
    The first one's usually the worst. It has to cut a new path. I was convinced I was dying.


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