Right now they might be the same pitcher but I think going forward in the next couple of years Kelly will be better because his stuff is very good. That's why I think someone can say Kelly is more talented.
EDIT: It should also be noted that Kelly only started 12 games in AAA last year before being called up. He was very raw last year and I expect him to be better this year with MLB experience under his belt.
Last edited by MikeThierry; 02-05-2013 at 08:59 PM.
I'm loving this thread.
Let's go ahead and start the season right. I want ten in a row with the Cards right now.
"Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?" ~ Jim Bouton
"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda
Mike got to that before i could. Kelly has the tools to become a #2 pitcher. Leake does not.
I said Kelly has more talent than Leake, not that he has put up better numbers after a little over a dozen MLB starts.
I was wrong about the neil walker thing, i thought i remembered it was betweem him and the second baseman.
Other than that, nothing ive said has been "empirically incorrect." Many people do find Brandon Phillips to be annoying. Maybe if Chris Carpenter ever actually played folks would remember he is annoying too, idk. And the Reds vs. Cards is not a huge rivalry in St. Louis unless both are competing for the division. They were in opposite divisions for a long time so they didn't play each other that much. Milwaukee vs St louis was a huge rivalry 2 years ago. now, not so much. The same thing will happen with reds and cardinals. They compete for a while, then one will fall back, or maybe both will and the rivalry will die. Its not a a bitter historic rivalry like it's being treated by some.
Card fans talk about how Kelly only had 12 starts in AAA before his promotion to the big leagues. Leake went straight from college to the bigs in 2010. He basically has been learning on the job for the past three years. The simple fact that he has three full season of being an MLB starter puts him ahead of Kelly. He is now at the age and experience level where most pitchers turns the corner.
I really like Kelly, love his fastball, but he's mile away from putting it together. In fact, he has not even been mentioned in the discussion to fill Carp's spot. There's a reason why.
I would also like to thank everyone for keeping this thread (mostly) civil. I try not to post in Cards/Reds threads, because it is literally impossible for me to be objective on the subject. My hate for that organization knows no boundaries.
Benzinger backing and calling! And the 1990 world championship series belongs to the Cincinnati Reds!
If mike Leake's upside is so high then why is he either going to start the next season as a middle reliever or in triple-A? The same position Kelly will find himself in. Kelly has been rapidly promoted over the last year and Leake is about to be rapidly demoted.
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If Mike Leake didn't go 8-9 with 4.58 era last season he would not be getting removed from the starting rotation to be replaced by a guy who has 0 mlb starts. Mike LEake does not have a high ceiling. He will at best be a #4 starter in his career. Joe Kelly may very well only be a #4 starter. But his tools give him the ability to be better. And for a guy who can only throw a no movement fastball he seemed to do pretty well in his 16 starts with I believe over a dozen of them being quality starts.
""Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona." George Will
yeah he had a 3.86 era sandwiched between 4.23 in 2010 and 4.58 in 2012. Jake Westbrook once had a 3.38 era. That doesn't make him a #2 starter.
Look you can make this argument all you want but Mike Leake was awful this year and if everything goes well for chapman, he will never be anything more than a spot starter for the reds ever again.
And, if that production makes him easily a #3 and possibly a #2 then Bailey is a bonafide #2 and possibly a #1? Give me a break.
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