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Thread: Ryan Braun busted again?

  1. #16
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanMeyer View Post
    There are always two sides to every story.

    Please don't mistake me for a Braun sympathizer. However his reasoning behind the connection to Anthony Bosch sounds somewhat convincing. From The New York Times:


    Supposedly they spoke to Bosch about possible urine tampering and elevated testosterone levels. This could mean that Braun's lawyers were simply busy trying to build a defense. To an individual trying to look at this from an unbiased perspective, I can see where this might be legitimate.

    Our questions will certainly be answered soon enough. MLB will have to respond to this with an investigation of their own (if they haven't already). Until then, we cannot know for sure whether or not the interactions were legitimate.

    Everything is speculation at this point.
    Braun's explanation for being in Bosch's books makes sense, and I believe his explanation. It doesn't change the fact that Braun tested positive for PEDs and got off on a lame technicality. He is a cheater and I don't take him seriously as a baseball player.

    I wish that baseball would stiffen the penalty for PEDs. 50 games is a joke. If I were king the penalties would be:

    First offense- 162 games, plus player is ineligible for the playoffs in any season that a suspension is served.

    Second offense- lifetime ban.

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  3. #17
    Member leeech86's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Its just because he is having another herpes outbreak.

  4. #18
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    This, Carpenter hurt...the Reds chances for the division are just getting better and better.

  5. #19
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
    I wish that baseball would stiffen the penalty for PEDs. 50 games is a joke. If I were king the penalties would be:

    First offense- 162 games, plus player is ineligible for the playoffs in any season that a suspension is served.

    Second offense- lifetime ban.
    I think you present a very harsh, albeit potentially necessary set of rules. Yet I feel that MLB has done a solid job with this already. The current process of disciplinary action when testing positive for PEDs includes the following:

    First time offense: 50 games
    Second time offense: 100 games
    Third offense: lifetime ban from MLB

    While I would rather see the second time offenders banned for an entire season (162 games), I feel that baseball has taken a nice approach with the three-strike system.

    In regards to PED testing and disciplinary action, MLB has unquestionably taken the most dramatic measures of any professional sport.

  6. #20
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigfunguy View Post
    This, Carpenter hurt...the Reds chances for the division are just getting better and better.
    Dont say that!

  7. #21
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanMeyer View Post
    I think you present a very harsh, albeit potentially necessary set of rules. Yet I feel that MLB has done a solid job with this already. The current process of disciplinary action when testing positive for PEDs includes the following:

    First time offense: 50 games
    Second time offense: 100 games
    Third offense: lifetime ban from MLB

    While I would rather see the second time offenders banned for an entire season (162 games), I feel that baseball has taken a nice approach with the three-strike system.

    In regards to PED testing and disciplinary action, MLB has unquestionably taken the most dramatic measures of any professional sport.
    I see no basis in a 3 strike system. The league continually stresses the importance of purity in the game, and there is a huge dark cloud over the steroid era (that apparently is ever-present). However, they do not reflect his same sentiment with the current set of rules. Fifty games is a joke.

    If they want to crack down I agree with what was mentioned above.

    1st offense = 162 games (including playoff games for the season the offense was committed).

    2nd offense = lifetime ban from baseball + no HOF ballot

    I understand some players may accidentally/unknowingly use a PED, in that case, the consequences are harsh, BUT I think they are getting paid well enough to be hypercritical and hyper-vigilant of what they are putting into their bodies. It's not too much to ask. If they can't accept and follow the rules then they will pay these consequences. Heck, if these were the current set of rules, A-Rod would be done for...

  8. #22
    Member UrbanMeyer's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    I can see where you're coming from, JB12. However we are not far removed from the steroid era. An aggressive approach like this may be counterproductive. While the two-strike system that you and Pony Boy endorse would undeniably be harsh and effective, one must think of the banishments that would be occurring and the effect that it may have on the game.

    Do you think it'd good for MLB to ban players from the game for a second offense? How would the MLBPA react to numerous banishments per season (which is what very well could happen)? Would it be fair to someone to get banished off a potential accident? What if this happened down the road to a Reds player? That is, an accidental second time offense. I have a feeling opinions may change.

    Guys who get tested positive a second time are already 'banned' in a sense. Baseball writers are not going to vote for somebody they feel cheated several times anyway. While it is far too early to speculate, I cannot imagine a scenario now where A-Rod gets inducted to the Hall of Fame.

    It really comes down to a matter of preference. If you feel the game would be better off by banning countless guys for second time offenses, then you'd like a two-strike system.

    I just feel that would be too aggressive. With the amount of supplements on the banned substances list, there are bound to be legitimate accidents. I would hate to see a situation where an athlete received a lifetime banishment for an honest mistake.

  9. #23
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    I just feel that would be too aggressive. With the amount of supplements on the banned substances list, there are bound to be legitimate accidents. I would hate to see a situation where an athlete received a lifetime banishment for an honest mistake.
    Assuming the player is really innocent, even with a more aggressive punishment schedule there would have to be two honest mistakes before a lifetime banishment kicked in. Have we reached the point where it is too much to expect for an adult, whose livelihood depends on this, to exercise caution and responsibility with regards to what they ingest?
    I read an article where it stated that MLB has a 24-hour contact line available to players so that they can ensure what they are taking is not on the banned subtance list. Is a five-minute phone call too much to ask when your livelihood is at stake?
    Nobody wants to see an innocent player get banned for life, but what are the odds of PED lightning striking the same player twice? I would say extremely slim. And, even if that were to occur, does it trump the integrity of the game? I am not certain which percentage of players are using PEDs. But I am pretty certain that the usage is not spread out evenly. I think there are pockets of usage. If a team has 5 or 6 users and your team has 1 or 2 users, doesn't that give the other team an unfair advantage?
    Like I stated earlier, nobody wants to see an innocent player being unfairly punished. But the integrity of the game trumps that every time IMO.
    A summer watching a bad Reds' team, is still a pretty good summer.

  10. #24
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Sorry, Urban, but these are adults we're dealing with. Like texasdave said, it shouldn't be asking too much of an adult to be responsible for the substances they consume. Can you think of an example where an upstanding, honest player "accidently" ingested a banned substance that lead to a second offense? Can you even formulate a hypothetical situation where this could occur? A ban in this scenario means that he would have had to of failed a PED test before. If something like this were to happen, would you even feel bad for him?

    Not trying to call you out or put you on the spot. I'm simply playing along. At the end of the day, an opportunity has been presented to baseball. Once again, MLB can take charge and lead the fight in eradicating these substances from sports, as it has done for years, or it can find excuses for these grown men. I really hope that this is a water-shed moment.

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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanMeyer View Post
    Would it be fair to someone to get banished off a potential accident? What if this happened down the road to a Reds player? That is, an accidental second time offense. I have a feeling opinions may change.
    I do think it is fair for someone to get banned for accidentally taking a PED, IF it is there second offense. As mentioned above, it is their livelihood at stake--meaning, they should be extremely cautious as to what they use/ingest.

    I'd hate to see innocent players get banned, however, if someone unknowingly uses PEDs once and gets caught, I highly doubt they'd unknowingly use again. It's just that simple. My point is, I think the harsher consequences are justified.

    I don't think there would be many players banned for getting caught using twice. And those that are banned, I'd say they rightfully deserve it (i.e. ARod).

  12. #26
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Of tangential consideration, I wonder how many players use because they feel the pressure to "keep up with the Arods"? They see/hear of players using and take note of the benefits. And then they feel pressured to do the same for fear of being left behind production-wise. After all, there is a lot of money at stake and, in a sense, they are competing with the other players for their share of the pie.
    A summer watching a bad Reds' team, is still a pretty good summer.

  13. #27
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    I completely understand where texasdave, Kilgore, and JB are coming from. It is truly difficult to grasp a situation where an athlete would accidently take PEDs twice. After all, these players are adults and this is their profession. They should be able to take responsibility for what they put into their bodies.

    My argument is the second offense. Assuming an individual knowingly took a banned substance the first time, then somehow tested positive for elevated levels of testosterone (which can happen naturally, though rare) or a banned substance that they may not have been entirely aware of taking. Is it fair to this person to be banned from baseball FOR LIFE over a possible accident? I don't think so. We can argue that he was wrong for knowingly taking a banned substance the first time... because he was. But can we really blame someone for doing so when they feel their performance might be lacking while competitors could be gaining a competitive advantage illegally? Like we have established, this game is their livelihood. Therefore they are going to strive to be the best they can be.

    I feel that baseball is doing their part and doing it well. They just passed legislation to increase in-season testing for all players. While there maybe issues with enforcement for some, there is no doubting that the game is MUCH cleaner now than it was not even a decade ago.

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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanMeyer View Post
    I completely understand where texasdave, Kilgore, and JB are coming from. It is truly difficult to grasp a situation where an athlete would accidently take PEDs twice. After all, these players are adults and this is their profession. They should be able to take responsibility for what they put into their bodies.

    My argument is the second offense. Assuming an individual knowingly took a banned substance the first time, then somehow tested positive for elevated levels of testosterone (which can happen naturally, though rare) or a banned substance that they may not have been entirely aware of taking. Is it fair to this person to be banned from baseball FOR LIFE over a possible accident? I don't think so. We can argue that he was wrong for knowingly taking a banned substance the first time... because he was. But can we really blame someone for doing so when they feel their performance might be lacking while competitors could be gaining a competitive advantage illegally? Like we have established, this game is their livelihood. Therefore they are going to strive to be the best they can be.

    I feel that baseball is doing their part and doing it well. They just passed legislation to increase in-season testing for all players. While there maybe issues with enforcement for some, there is no doubting that the game is MUCH cleaner now than it was not even a decade ago.

    I respect your persistence in defending your argument. I acknowledge your points, and understand where you are coming from.

    I think after a first offense, the player should be hyper-vigilant in knowing exactly what they are taking. I've never heard of a player getting busted for having naturally high levels of testosterone, although I do understand how this could happen (albeit highly highly unlikely).

    And regarding your question that I bolded above--I think we can absolutely blame a player for cheating, regardless of the circumstances. As you mentioned, the league has cracked down on this and testing will be provided to each player next year, therefore this shouldn't be happening at all (and if it is, it will be caught). But I think a player who cheats, in order to keep with the crowd, is just as guilty as anyone else. That seems harsh, I know, but I don't see any other way to articulate that point of view.

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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
    Braun's explanation for being in Bosch's books makes sense, and I believe his explanation. It doesn't change the fact that Braun tested positive for PEDs and got off on a lame technicality. He is a cheater and I don't take him seriously as a baseball player.

    I wish that baseball would stiffen the penalty for PEDs. 50 games is a joke. If I were king the penalties would be:

    First offense- 162 games, plus player is ineligible for the playoffs in any season that a suspension is served.

    Second offense- lifetime ban.




    Wait a minute here... why does this explanation make any sense?

    The fact is he admittedly paid thousands of dollars to consult with a doctor who is one of the foremost PED supporters in the world. If a guy admits consulting with Victor Conte at Balco, what is the purpose of doing so if not for the clear or the cream? Braun's situation is identical to that.

    I agree though that he was obviously guilty before. I agree that the penalties need to be ramped up to just what you suggest.

    But for anybody to believe Braun now -- well, lets just repeat the whole "fool me once" aphorism that GWB made into a Who song... You can't get fooled again

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  17. #30
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    Re: Ryan Braun busted again?

    Gotta agree with you, BlackPete. Based on a few articles I have read, Braun's own lawyer indicated that the value Anthony Bosch brought to the defense's case was "negligible." Why would they owe a guy who provided only "negligible" insight upwards of $20,000? Did everybody they talk to in preparation for their defense receive such high payment as well? It's all very strange to me.

    I believe in the age-old adage of "innocent until proven guilty." I truly believe it to be an American ideal (though not strictly American, if we want to get technical) that is based in reason and justice, but at this point it's hard not to want to hold your nose whenever Braun opens his mouth. I can't be the only one that smells fraud-sauce in his breath.

    Over in the ORG, a fellow poster referred to Ryan as Teflon Braun. If all of these allegations are true, I really don't think I can refer to him as anything else from here on out. Gold, I tell ya. Gold.


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