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Thread: Ryan Braun going down?

  1. #31
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    How does the league adequately prove 100 percent of the time correctly that the elevated testosterone in a players urine was the result of intentional roiding, not spiked food?

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  3. #32
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I wish more people would really try to figure out the truth instead of going into these topics with their minds already made up.

    The PEDs cheaters should be severely punished (even though it is clear that the effects of PEDs have been hugely overblown as has been exhaustively shown by Baseball Prospectus and others). Breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage is unsportsmanlike and in the case of PEDs can truly harm one's health. Testing should be more frequent and more effective. Get rid of the cheaters so we can stop talking about this issue.

    If we are going to severely punish the cheaters, we need to make 100% sure that the people we punish are in fact guilty.

    It seems that too many people want to destroy players when the evidence against them is flimsy. That strikes me as totally dishonest and un-American.

    How can we make sure that a player's food or drink was not dosed with PEDs by someone else in an effort to get him suspended? How can we be sure that allegations are true? How can we be sure that the testing process is infallible and perfect 100% of the time? We don't want to destroy players if we are not 100% sure they are guilty do we?

    There have been over 100 players suspended by baseball for PEDs. Only one of those has successfully appealed his suspension. The arbitrator has ruled against the player in every single case except one. Shouldn't that give you enough pause to at least consider the possibility there were very good reasons for overturning Ryan Braun's suspension?

    Since the player is not allowed to appeal the results of the positive drug test, Braun's legal team had to find a violation of the protocol as a means of triggering a hearing in front of the arbitrator. Once the hearing starts the defendant can present all of his arguments for why he should be exonerated. These arguments may include a lot more than just the technicality that violated the testing protocol. My suspicion is that the custody chain of the urine sample was the technicality that triggered the hearing, but was not the main reason why the suspension was overturned. (Remember, the arbitrator never released a report stating why the suspension was overturned -- nobody knows he official reason(s) why he was exonerated. People think they know, but they don't really know.) I believe the real reason is that his test results were astronomically high -- higher than any other test ever run. Twice as high as the next highest sample ever tested according to some sources. That is a real red flag and could indicate a defective test or a spiked sample. How could Braun's test result be twice as high as the East German Olympic weightlifters yet he didn't have any physical, emotional or behavioral side effects? The facts that his sample was mis-handled and the test results were beyond anything ever seen before calls into question whether the sample was tampered with. Who knows what other evidence and arguments were presented at the hearing? It was never made public, so we have no way of knowing. The independent arbitrator Shyam Das obviously felt the evidence to convict Ryan Braun was not sufficient. He ruled to revoke the suspension. This was the first time he had ever ruled in favor of a player. He had ruled against the player in every single hearing prior to Braun's, so you can't claim he was biased in favor of the players. For a professional and independent arbitrator to make an unprecedented decision such as this there must have been a very good reason. For us to insist that Braun was really guilty and just "got off on a technicality" is totally illogical and irrational.

    If it turns out that Ryan Braun did in fact use PEDs and it is adequately proven then he deserves to be suspended for a long time without pay and his reputation should be permanently ruined. So far that has not been proven, so it is unfair and dishonest to disparage his character unless and until he is proven guilty. There are plenty of proven PED users to vilify, so far Ryan Braun is not one of them.

    Let's make sure our villains are villains before we hang 'em high.

    Once they are proven guilty I have no problem with hanging them at high noon in front of the courthouse.
    Braun's test was positive. Just because you choose to agree with the Arbiter that allowed him to "avoid suspension" due to a technicality that did not affect the test in any way doesn't mean that I have to; even if you write a lot longer response than I do...believe what you want. PEDS/Clemons/Bonds/McGwuire/Sosa have destroyed the game I loved for so many years. It's time to take it back and waiting around for Braun to burst into flames while he skates around on a technicality does not impress me or make me feel like justice was served. Baseball needs to clean up the sport; they still aren't taking it seriously. It's pathetic.

    Bum

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  5. #33
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    The PEDs cheaters should be severely punished (even though it is clear that the effects of PEDs have been hugely overblown as has been exhaustively shown by Baseball Prospectus and others)
    There is actually no scientific support for the notion that some PEDs like HGH would help Ryan Braun hit more homers.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    There is actually no scientific support for the notion that some PEDs like HGH would help Ryan Braun hit more homers.
    Are they illegal drugs? Steroids and HGH? Are they illegal to use in baseball? Since they are illegal drugs and illegal to use in baseball, who gives a rats ass about what a few people think about scientific support? Not relevant to anything. They actually, scientifically speaking help players recover from fatigue and injuries faster thus being more capable of being at their best more often than a player that doesn't take them, which in the end, allows them to perform at a higher level than they otherwise would...shhhhh don't tell anyone...

  7. #35
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Braun's test was positive. Just because you choose to agree with the Arbiter that allowed him to "avoid suspension" due to a technicality that did not affect the test in any way doesn't mean that I have to; even if you write a lot longer response than I do...believe what you want. PEDS/Clemons/Bonds/McGwuire/Sosa have destroyed the game I loved for so many years. It's time to take it back and waiting around for Braun to burst into flames while he skates around on a technicality does not impress me or make me feel like justice was served. Baseball needs to clean up the sport; they still aren't taking it seriously. It's pathetic.

    Bum
    Couple quick points:

    1) You can chose to emphatically state that Braun's test was not affected by the way it was handled but the whole point of the collectively bargained chain of command was that sample integrity can be compromised by how the sample is handled.

    2) Frankly, I'm offended that the amphetamine era destroyed several of the Babe's legitimate homerun records. I quit watching baseball in the early 50's because all of the chemical cheating was tainting the normal cheating I came to know and love from earlier eras.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #36
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Couple quick points:

    1) You can chose to emphatically state that Braun's test was not affected by the way it was handled but the whole point of the collectively bargained chain of command was that sample integrity can be compromised by how the sample is handled. -this is a myth that you choose to believe. There is no scientific evidence to support this claim. It was just a technicality that the arbiter clung to (that or a portion of Braun's billfold)...

  9. #37
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Fangraphs article on Braun's connection to Bosch titled Braunís Explanation on Biogenesis Is Entirely Plausible: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...ely-plausible/
    I agree that Braun's explanation is plausible. But so what? MLB already caught him cheating and he was lucky enough to avoid punishment for no other reason than Fed Ex is closed on Sundays.

    So maybe the entry on the Biogenesis books for Braun is for consulting purposes. He is still a cheater that hasn't done his time.

  10. #38
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Are they illegal drugs? Steroids and HGH? Are they illegal to use in baseball? Since they are illegal drugs and illegal to use in baseball, who gives a rats ass about what a few people think about scientific support? Not relevant to anything. They actually, scientifically speaking help players recover from fatigue and injuries faster thus being more capable of being at their best more often than a player that doesn't take them, which in the end, allows them to perform at a higher level than they otherwise would...shhhhh don't tell anyone...
    Frankly a baseball player who has suffered an injury ought to be able to take advantage of the latest medical break throughs in recovery. I'm kind of surprised anyone would argue otherwise.

    But I kind of do think it's important to have proof when someone makes a claim that something does something and because of it, the game is ruined.

    Also, if it's the act of cheating (and not the impact of cheating on stats) that is really what you're upset about, then really, it's mystifying why you follw baseball to begin with. Cheating is part of the baseball culture and it's so engrained, it's part of the fabric of the game.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #39
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Braun's test was positive. Just because you choose to agree with the Arbiter that allowed him to "avoid suspension" due to a technicality that did not affect the test in any way doesn't mean that I have to; even if you write a lot longer response than I do...believe what you want. PEDS/Clemons/Bonds/McGwuire/Sosa have destroyed the game I loved for so many years. It's time to take it back and waiting around for Braun to burst into flames while he skates around on a technicality does not impress me or make me feel like justice was served. Baseball needs to clean up the sport; they still aren't taking it seriously. It's pathetic.

    Bum
    Do you believe that every single positive drug test in history was accurate? Do you think a false positive is impossible? The arbitrator found it plausible that Braun's test was a false positive or the sample was tampered with. That shows that it is unfair to lump Ryan Braun in the same group as the most egregious PEDs cheaters. Maybe later Braun will actually be proven to be a cheater, but as of right now he has not.

    The "hard" steroids that Bonds and McGuire took are easily found by modern tests. The PEDs being taken by players today are much less effective than the raw, hard-core steroids of the 80's and 90's.

    I agree that PEDs need to be removed from the game. I just want to do it fairly. I am not saying you don't, but I think we need to have some higher standards of testing to make sure we are not punishing the innocent.

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Frankly a baseball player who has suffered an injury ought to be able to take advantage of the latest medical break throughs in recovery. I'm kind of surprised anyone would argue otherwise.

    But I kind of do think it's important to have proof when someone makes a claim that something does something and because of it, the game is ruined.

    Also, if it's the act of cheating (and not the impact of cheating on stats) that is really what you're upset about, then really, it's mystifying why you follw baseball to begin with. Cheating is part of the baseball culture and it's so engrained, it's part of the fabric of the game.
    To be fair, I don't follow it like I used to. I used to spend 140+ evenings watching the Reds. Now...eh...if I can. I don't watch other teams much anymore. I look at the stats and such and watch some of the young players. The others...eh...baseball isn't what it used to be. Honestly, I don't see how it ever recovers in my eyes between PEDS and the Financial Disparity among the teams.

    More time for other avenues.

    Bum

  13. #41
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
    I agree that Braun's explanation is plausible. But so what? MLB already caught him cheating and he was lucky enough to avoid punishment for no other reason than Fed Ex is closed on Sundays.

    So maybe the entry on the Biogenesis books for Braun is for consulting purposes. He is still a cheater that hasn't done his time.
    If you believe that you haven't been paying attention. That is not an accurate portrayal of what really happened.

  14. #42
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    To be fair, I don't follow it like I used to. I used to spend 140+ evenings watching the Reds. Now...eh...if I can. I don't watch other teams much anymore. I look at the stats and such and watch some of the young players. The others...eh...baseball isn't what it used to be. Honestly, I don't see how it ever recovers in my eyes between PEDS and the Financial Disparity among the teams.

    More time for other avenues.

    Bum
    Basketball isn't what it used to be, football is hardly what it used to be, Hockey isn't what it used to be.

    I'm not what I used to be.

    Change is inevitable, everyone complains about the game changing

    Batters don't follow out their natural instinct to wallop the ball, but stall around the plate in the hope of drawing a base instead of hitting the ball hard.

    Bill Lange 3-14-1909

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  16. #43
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    -this is a myth that you choose to believe. There is no scientific evidence to support this claim. It was just a technicality that the arbiter clung to (that or a portion of Braun's billfold)...
    Bull. Sample degradation absolutely can cause false positives with the type of test Braun failed. If you're unwilling to even acknowledge that reality, then really, you shouldn't be suggesting that others have arbitrarily chose to adopt a biased position.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  17. #44
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    There is actually no scientific support for the notion that some PEDs like HGH would help Ryan Braun hit more homers.
    I think there is some support. I know hHG has been shown to increase anaerobic exercise (Birzniece et al, 2011). As far as Braun and HRs specifically... I don't think we will see a proper experiment on that topic published any time soon.

  18. #45
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    I think there is some support. I know hHG has been shown to increase anaerobic exercise (Birzniece et al, 2011). As far as Braun and HRs specifically... I don't think we will see a proper experiment on that topic published any time soon.
    The only real effect of HGH has been in Ho's study in 2010 (he is also the senior author on the review you cited) where there was an effect of HGH on performance in the Wingate test which essentially uses a high intensity exercise challenge as a proxy for sprinting though it is actually unclear how the Wingate test actually even informs true performance.

    In other words, in the body of GH literature, there is one study that suggests HGH could make cheetah's better able to catch antelope while the preponderance of studies addressing HGH and athletic performance indicate in Dr. Ho's own words, "In summary, there appears to be no evidence that GH enhances muscle strength, power, or aerobic capacity in trained adult athletes".

    So really as the literature stands, there isn't any support for the notion that HGH would help Ryan Braun hit more homers.

    HGH in and of itself is pretty much a dud for baseball players wanting to increase their normal performance.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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