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Thread: Ryan Braun going down?

  1. #121
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Consulting can be extremely lucrative.
    No doubt, but was he consulting or just being screened? $30k for a screening is criminal.

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  3. #122
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    No doubt, but was he consulting or just being screened? $30k for a screening is criminal.
    He apparently was used by one of the lawyers for something that could be billed before the lead on the team dropped him.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'm actually becoming convinced that you really aren't familiar with the details of his suspension and appeal.
    I'm convinced more and more that you are just burying your head in the sand and pretending that Braun is somehow innocent. I think you somehow want to believe that PEDS aren't a real issue in baseball. I am particularly amused that you think synthetic testosterone levels can jump to high levels right out of thin air. To top it off you somehow find yourself as the only one that truly understands the "case."

    I am just going to sit here and wait for Braun to provide his next explanation for the next incident where we just don't understand his association with steroids and the people that sell them to him...er...sell them...

    Bum

  5. #124
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    I'm convinced more and more that you are just burying your head in the sand and pretending that Braun is somehow innocent. I think you somehow want to believe that PEDS aren't a real issue in baseball. I am particularly amused that you think synthetic testosterone levels can jump to high levels right out of thin air. To top it off you somehow find yourself as the only one that truly understands the "case."

    I am just going to sit here and wait for Braun to provide his next explanation for the next incident where we just don't understand his association with steroids and the people that sell them to him...er...sell them...

    Bum
    While you're sitting and twittling, why not actually read what i've said about PEDs and baseball-i've actually written quite a few posts on this issue over the years.

    But really, you have yet to accurately characterize anything I've written in this thread so maybe it would be more beneficial for you to just spend sometime searching for that utopian era of baseball that was pure and perfect. When you do find it, share it with us.

    But we get it-PEDs has destroyed your romanticized version of baseball and talking about jojo is what you consider making a reasoned argument.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #125
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's a pretty simple position- Shyam Das was convinced that the storage/handling called the results into question. If we ever get to see his report, we'll be in better position to argue the merit of his decision.
    Based on what we know, that's not accurate.

    According to the reports, Das's report specifically said that the results of the test were not called into question, because it never got that far. He dismissed the case because the carrier violated the instructions that existed in the CBA at the time. His report specifically said that it was not important whether this violation had any effect on the results of the test itself, all that mattered was that the rules set forth in the CBA were violated.

    The MLB drug policy states that "absent unusual circumstances, the specimens should be sent by FedEx to the laboratory on the same day they are collected." Das did not consider the store being closed, an "unusual circumstance," and thus, when the specimens were not sent out the same day via FedEx, the CBA was violated, end of story. It didn't matter what the currier did after that, no matter how carefully he handled the specimens, the CBA had already been violated, and the test results were now meaningless.

    I agree with Das, the CBA rules were violated, but only because they were poorly written with vague language, and did not proved proper instruction for the carrier in the case where the Fed Ex store was closed. Das was correct in his ruling, but in no way does his ruling exonerate Braun. His ruling merely pointed out the the CBA was poorly written and needed to be rewritten.

  7. #126
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    While you're sitting and twittling, why not actually read what i've said about PEDs and baseball-i've actually written quite a few posts on this issue over the years.

    But really, you have yet to accurately characterize anything I've written in this thread so maybe it would be more beneficial for you to just spend sometime searching for that utopian era of baseball that was pure and perfect. When you do find it, share it with us.

    But we get it-PEDs has destroyed your romanticized version of baseball and talking about jojo is what you consider making a reasoned argument.
    Much like casting insults at Bumstead is a reasoned argument for jojo? Don't be afraid to come down off your high horse. Nobody is particularly impressed by it.

    Actually, the Financial Disparity between MLB teams has done more to ruin the game I love than PEDS ever could. But, I don't try to pretend that the use of illegal drugs is not harming the game and I don't try to pretend that baseball is doing much of anything to clean up that part of the game. I also don't consider you an authority on PED use in baseball and see no reason to search this website to read more of your OPINIONS on the subject. It seems to me that you cannot separate your opinions from actual facts; at that point, then you take the position that everyone else just doesn't get it. Great for discussions...

    Carry on.

    Bum

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    As has been stated before, a player cannot appeal the result of the test according to the collective bargaining agreement.
    I am sorry, but where did this assertion come from? According to Drug Use Policy Addendum to the Collective Bargaining Agreement (2006) paragraph 8(B)(2) as found at http://mlb.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

    "2. Challenges to the Proof of the Violation: The Player may challenge the initial showing by the Commissionerís Office that the result was "positive" or that it was obtained pursuant to a test authorized under the Program and was conducted in accordance with the Collection Procedures."

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayStubbs View Post
    Based on what we know, that's not accurate.

    According to the reports, Das's report specifically said that the results of the test were not called into question, because it never got that far. He dismissed the case because the carrier violated the instructions that existed in the CBA at the time. His report specifically said that it was not important whether this violation had any effect on the results of the test itself, all that mattered was that the rules set forth in the CBA were violated.

    The MLB drug policy states that "absent unusual circumstances, the specimens should be sent by FedEx to the laboratory on the same day they are collected." Das did not consider the store being closed, an "unusual circumstance," and thus, when the specimens were not sent out the same day via FedEx, the CBA was violated, end of story. It didn't matter what the currier did after that, no matter how carefully he handled the specimens, the CBA had already been violated, and the test results were now meaningless.

    I agree with Das, the CBA rules were violated, but only because they were poorly written with vague language, and did not proved proper instruction for the carrier in the case where the Fed Ex store was closed. Das was correct in his ruling, but in no way does his ruling exonerate Braun. His ruling merely pointed out the the CBA was poorly written and needed to be rewritten.
    Can you provide a link to the actual report?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Much like casting insults at Bumstead is a reasoned argument for jojo? Don't be afraid to come down off your high horse. Nobody is particularly impressed by it.

    Actually, the Financial Disparity between MLB teams has done more to ruin the game I love than PEDS ever could. But, I don't try to pretend that the use of illegal drugs is not harming the game and I don't try to pretend that baseball is doing much of anything to clean up that part of the game. I also don't consider you an authority on PED use in baseball and see no reason to search this website to read more of your OPINIONS on the subject. It seems to me that you cannot separate your opinions from actual facts; at that point, then you take the position that everyone else just doesn't get it. Great for discussions...

    Carry on.

    Bum
    Frankly, Bum, you should make an effort to be well versed in the opinions of others when you author posts aimed at labeling the opinions of others.

    But ya, it's pretty obvious why there is a disconnect between the characterization and the content.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Can you provide a link to the actual report?
    As I said, based on what was reported. And what was reported, was based on a leaked version of the actual report.

    The fact that we don't have the actual report is a distraction. The vast majority of information we get these days is from leaked material and second hand sources. Not to bring politics into this, but the whole Drone controversy in Washington now is based on leaked reports. No one, outside of the reporter who leaked the story, had seen the actual report, until it was released to members of Congress, and even they can't comment on what they read. Yet no one is questioning the integrity of the report.

  12. #131
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    He apparently was used by one of the lawyers for something that could be billed before the lead on the team dropped him.
    Possibly. There are lots of possibilities.

  13. #132
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Jojo is now talking about himself in third person....

    Is it that time of the year already?
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Frankly, Bum, you should make an effort to be well versed in the opinions of others when you author posts aimed at labeling the opinions of others.

    But ya, it's pretty obvious why there is a disconnect between the characterization and the content.
    Frankly jojo, this "conversation" with you has gone about like any other one I have had with you in the past. I'm just amused by it now.

    Now, of course, since you can't point out how testosterone levels jump out of thin air, it has become a "attack the character of the poster" response. The only obvious answer to that, of course, is that there was tampering...but, that isn't even what Braun's lawyers said. I'm sorry if I don't just take your word for these types of things, but it just doesn't hold water. I know that Braun avoided suspension based on a technicality, but to try and say he's not a "user" is a bit far-fetched unless you are accusing the guy who took the sample of tampering with both samples. If that isn't the case, well, Braun's a user. There's nothing else to hang your hat on. Testosterone levels don't jump out of thin air do they?

    Bum

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayStubbs View Post
    As I said, based on what was reported. And what was reported, was based on a leaked version of the actual report.

    The fact that we don't have the actual report is a distraction. The vast majority of information we get these days is from leaked material and second hand sources. Not to bring politics into this, but the whole Drone controversy in Washington now is based on leaked reports. No one, outside of the reporter who leaked the story, had seen the actual report, until it was released to members of Congress, and even they can't comment on what they read. Yet no one is questioning the integrity of the report.
    The fact that we don't have the actual report is vital.

    Apparently Braun's team took a clean sample and produced results similar to mlb's by mimicking the couriers actions and this factored into Das' decision.

    If Braun had a legit result demonstrating an isotopic signature consistent with endogenous steroids, then that is a different issue. MLB has not wanted to go there concerning an appeal though. We need to see Das' arguement and we need to see what he considered a fact and why.

    BTW, I have never argued that Braun is a clean player. I have argued that some in the media and in the ranks of fans have an intractable bias that prevents them from being objective about the issue of baseball and PEDs and a notion that 1995-2007 has somehow ruined baseball is largely based upon an inaccurate view of history.
    Last edited by jojo; 02-08-2013 at 10:55 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  16. #135
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Frankly jojo, this "conversation" with you has gone about like any other one I have had with you in the past. I'm just amused by it now.

    Now, of course, since you can't point out how testosterone levels jump out of thin air, it has become a "attack the character of the poster" response. The only obvious answer to that, of course, is that there was tampering...but, that isn't even what Braun's lawyers said. I'm sorry if I don't just take your word for these types of things, but it just doesn't hold water. I know that Braun avoided suspension based on a technicality, but to try and say he's not a "user" is a bit far-fetched unless you are accusing the guy who took the sample of tampering with both samples. If that isn't the case, well, Braun's a user. There's nothing else to hang your hat on. Testosterone levels don't jump out of thin air do they?

    Bum
    You've had your say about how you feel about me several times now. I'm sure everyone is even less interested in that tangent than I am.

    Please put me on ignore and continue further metacommentary via PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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