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Thread: Ryan Braun going down?

  1. #181
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    So many lies have been told by guys over the past decade its hard to sort all this out. Very rarely do you have a player who fesses up before the sentence has been handed down and the test is shown to be rock solid.

    I mean, who here believes that Volquez tested positive cause he was taking a fertility drug to start a family? And that Sosa didn't know his bat was corked for that matter?

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  3. #182
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    That's all I have said.
    You've said a lot more than that, but I'm not going to cut and paste every post you've made in this thread to hammer on that point.

    Where you've got a drive-a-truck-through-it hole is on the testing being easy to beat but players being disinclined to do so (or even fretful over getting caught by the shoddy system). That doesn't hold water.

    It's far more likely that testing is generally effective and that it takes a good bit of work and planning to beat it, not to mention some talent for keeping a secret and not leaving an evidence trail. If you're going to make a career of PED use in the current climate, I suspect that would be mildly exhausting.

    We are definitely coming at this from two different angles. Where they entwine is if he was guilty in 2011. That's where the Braun story takes its twists and turns. Maybe he used once at the very end of 2011 and it has no real bearing on the rest of his career. Or maybe he's used and it's had no real effect on his performance (which is always good regardless). Or maybe he's used his whole life, in which case it's a long way down the rabbit hole.

    My recommendation is to put Braun on the backburner. If he's truly a lifelong PED user, eventually it will come to light. If 2011 was an isolated incident, then it's not worth harping on.
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  4. #183
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    M2, can I ask why you believe this?

    Been over a few times in this thread already. The story of Ryan Braun the lifetime user requires a certain amount of wild speculation. It literally can lead you to something like this:



    And who wants to wear a hat made out of tin foil?
    Last edited by M2; 02-08-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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  5. #184
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    You've said a lot more than that, but I'm not going to cut and paste every post you've made in this thread to hammer on that point.

    Where you've got a drive-a-truck-through-it hole is on the testing being easy to beat but players being disinclined to do so (or even fretful over getting caught by the shoddy system). That doesn't hold water.

    It's far more likely that testing is generally effective and that it takes a good bit of work and planning to beat it, not to mention some talent for keeping a secret and not leaving an evidence trail. If you're going to make a career of PED use in the current climate, I suspect that would be mildly exhausting.

    We are definitely coming at this from two different angles. Where they entwine is if he was guilty in 2011. That's where the Braun story takes its twists and turns. Maybe he used once at the very end of 2011 and it has no real bearing on the rest of his career. Or maybe he's used and it's had no real effect on his performance (which is always good regardless). Or maybe he's used his whole life, in which case it's a long way down the rabbit hole.

    My recommendation is to put Braun on the backburner. If he's truly a lifelong PED user, eventually it will come to light. If 2011 was an isolated incident, then it's not worth harping on.
    I probably said more than that, but those were my points. I am not the best writer or the best at expressing what I am saying when I write. I have possibly exaggerated or been sarcastic (which confuses things). Or I may have even commented on an area that in the end wasn't a point I intended to make from the beginning. I acknowledge all that and it would be counter-productive to go through all of that again. My main issues are the one's I stated.

    By saying it is easy to get around the positive tests doesn't mean that it doesn't take some planning or that it doesn't become a tedious activity. Most players may not be willing to go through that, I have no idea. I think it is clear in everything that has been published that Steroid/HGH use has been and still is a pervasive issue in baseball. That's my opinion, which may or may not be shared by others. I want baseball to take a tougher stance and get it cleared up; I think they will eventually.

    As to Braun, I would find it difficult to believe it was a one-time thing but, you never know. It was disappointing to find that one of MLB's young stars tested positive after the blow up over the stars of the 80's and 90's and beyond.

    I find it all frustrating. I have enjoyed the debate with you though.

    Bum

  6. #185
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    That's just nonsense. No offense, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Athletes have been beating the system for decades. It's really not that hard. Actually, catching an offender is harder and rarer. It requires perfect timing by the league. If Braun is an evil genius, than so is Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, J.C. Romero, A-Rod, Edinson Volquez, Marlon Byrd and dozens of other players.
    That's a list of guys who used, allegedly, before testing, or who got caught. And if they got caught, then apparently it's not so easy to beat the system. Also, the system hasn't even been around for a decade, let alone decades. And if Braun had an otherwise foolproof method of beating the testing, then how did he get caught in 2011?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    And Braun surely had help in college. All big time college programs have tons of money and support, and volumes have been written about how college locker rooms are more like labs. Doping is a major part of sports, both pro and college. it's everywhere that money can be made.
    I look forward to your exposť on the University of Miami. Since it's everywhere and people are making so much money on it, I'm sure it will be easy to pick up the evidence trail.


    Also, Braun's college coaches haven't coached him since college. So please lay out exactly who Braun's support team is. That's easy to do with Armstrong so I'm sure you'll have no problem doing it with Braun.
    Last edited by M2; 02-08-2013 at 05:47 PM.
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  7. #186
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Actually, throughout this whole process I have said this:

    1) Braun's test was positive and I believe that he doped. (I don't care whether you care or not) And I argued that the environment couldn't create the positive result. Nobody on here has produced in evidence that Testosterone levels can increase without tampering regardless of the environment. I have asked how this is possible many times without one answer.

    2) The use of steroids in baseball hurts baseball's credibility in my eyes.

    3) MLB should stop talking about how great their testing is when it's not that difficult for players to get around it.

    That's all I have said. Anything else is just fabrication on your part. I did not argue how long Braun had used or if it had any affect (I don't care how long he has used). I did not argue whether it even made a difference in baseball outcomes or power production (I think it does but that has not been my argument). I said the 3 things above. Anything else you want to argue or associate with me is just pure fabrication. There was some unproductive "discussion" with a poster, but that's about par for the course on here.
    Bull pucky. You've clearly indicated that you believe Ryan Braun's numbers are enhanced by PEDs use:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Ryan "here come even more explanations/excuses" Braun....how dare we accuse him of anything more than being a product of the injections he receives...oops...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    The way Bigfoot swings those trees around in the "messing with sasquatch" commercials suggests that Bigfoot might be able to add some "unexplainable" power numbers to Braun's stat sheet should Braun medicate himself....err...listen properly....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Are they illegal drugs? Steroids and HGH? Are they illegal to use in baseball? Since they are illegal drugs and illegal to use in baseball, who gives a rats ass about what a few people think about scientific support? Not relevant to anything. They actually, scientifically speaking help players recover from fatigue and injuries faster thus being more capable of being at their best more often than a player that doesn't take them, which in the end, allows them to perform at a higher level than they otherwise would...shhhhh don't tell anyone...
    You're also trying to have it both ways:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Personally, I don't know what the effects are of a player taking steroids and I haven't argued one way or the other. It is illegal and I, personally, think baseball needs to put an end to it for their own "image."

    Why would Braun have needed to start taking steroids at a young age? He is clearly a really good hitter. I'm not sure what he would have needed the additional advantage for at the lower levels or in little league? Your exaggeration is mostly a distraction from the point of the topic IMO.

    If baseball wants to stop it and the players want to "clear their image" (cause none of them are doing it) then baseball needs to test for HGH and Steroids with blood testing. If they want to continue with the "image" that they are doing something and then "puffing" about all they are doing, then they should carry on with the current process.

    It is odd isn't that the power numbers are pretty much down all over baseball with even the current testing process in place? So, are we to believe that Steroids/HGH had no effect on players abilities in the 80's and 90's? Maybe it was just a blip of so many great hitters? Or really bad pitchers? So confusing...

    Bum
    MLB's testing policy can't be a failure if you're also claiming testing has significantly altered the run scoring environment.

    Also, you've emphatically stated that mlb isn't serious or effective by comparing mlb to the nfl. You can get gynecomastia from just breathing the air in nfl locker rooms.

    Also, you can't argue that it's the legality of PED use not the potential to influence performance that has ruined baseball for you. Amphetamines weren't legal yet I don't hear you condemning the 60' and 70's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    I care about the integrity of baseball and the tradition of the records that have been established over the 100+ years. Some don't care how the records are set. Obviously, one is free to make that choice and I am free to disagree.
    Which HR record's integrity was destroyed by Bonds? Was it Babe Ruth's all white player HR record or Hank Aaron's amphetamine era HR record? Both?

    I'm wondering how old you are because I'm wondering if you've ever seen a professional baseball game that lived up to your definition of integrity. Why is it again that you watch?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #187
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    That's a list of guys who used, allegedly, before testing, or who got caught. And if they got caught, then apparently it's not so easy to beat the system. Also, the system hasn't even been around for a decade, let alone decades. And if Braun had an otherwise foolproof of beating the testing, then how did he get caught in 2011?



    I look forward to your exposť on the University of Miami. Since it's everywhere and people are making so much money on it, I'm sure it will be easy to pick up the evidence trail.


    Also, Braun's college coaches haven't coached him since college. So please lay out exactly who Braun's support team is. That's easy to do with Armstrong so I'm sure you'll have no problem doing it with Braun.
    1. Only a handful of players have been caught. I imagine that that handful is a very small percentage of those that use.

    2. I have no idea why you think it takes a team of professionals to use PED's and not get caught. I already explained how the whole system works. The key to not getting caught is to just not be unlucky.
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  9. #188
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    You've said a lot more than that, but I'm not going to cut and paste every post you've made in this thread to hammer on that point.

    Where you've got a drive-a-truck-through-it hole is on the testing being easy to beat but players being disinclined to do so (or even fretful over getting caught by the shoddy system). That doesn't hold water.

    It's far more likely that testing is generally effective and that it takes a good bit of work and planning to beat it, not to mention some talent for keeping a secret and not leaving an evidence trail. If you're going to make a career of PED use in the current climate, I suspect that would be mildly exhausting.

    We are definitely coming at this from two different angles. Where they entwine is if he was guilty in 2011. That's where the Braun story takes its twists and turns. Maybe he used once at the very end of 2011 and it has no real bearing on the rest of his career. Or maybe he's used and it's had no real effect on his performance (which is always good regardless). Or maybe he's used his whole life, in which case it's a long way down the rabbit hole.

    My recommendation is to put Braun on the backburner. If he's truly a lifelong PED user, eventually it will come to light. If 2011 was an isolated incident, then it's not worth harping on.
    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Bull pucky. You've clearly indicated that you believe Ryan Braun's numbers are enhanced by PEDs use:







    You're also trying to have it both ways:



    MLB's testing policy can't be a failure if you're also claiming testing has significantly altered the run scoring environment.

    Also, you've emphatically stated that mlb isn't serious or effective by comparing mlb to the nfl. You can get gynecomastia from just breathing the air in nfl locker rooms.

    Also, you can't argue that it's the legality of PED use not the potential to influence performance that has ruined baseball for you. Amphetamines weren't legal yet I don't hear you condemning the 60' and 70's.



    Which HR record's integrity was destroyed by Bonds? Was it Babe Ruth's all white player HR record or Hank Aaron's amphetamine era HR record? Both?

    I'm wondering how old you are because I'm wondering if you've ever seen a professional baseball game that lived up to your definition of integrity. Why is it again that you watch?
    Nowhere in there did I say Braun's numbers were improved by his use of Steroids. The Sasquatch thing was a joke...haha

    Whether it improves performance or not, doesn't matter. What matters is that is calls into question all the records created during the "Steroid Era." I'm not getting into Bonds.

    I am 45, which I doubt is relevant and Pete Rose, George Foster, Eric Davis, Mario Soto, Tom Seaver and Drew Stubbs have been my favorite players. I am having a hard time finding a new favorite player, but that CF in LAA or that Harper kid, I really like. But they aren't Reds...sigh...I could have predicted your jump back into the conversation but...

    Bum

  10. #189
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Bull pucky. You've clearly indicated that you believe Ryan Braun's numbers are enhanced by PEDs use:







    You're also trying to have it both ways:



    MLB's testing policy can't be a failure if you're also claiming testing has significantly altered the run scoring environment.

    Also, you've emphatically stated that mlb isn't serious or effective by comparing mlb to the nfl. You can get gynecomastia from just breathing the air in nfl locker rooms.

    Also, you can't argue that it's the legality of PED use not the potential to influence performance that has ruined baseball for you. Amphetamines weren't legal yet I don't hear you condemning the 60' and 70's.



    Which HR record's integrity was destroyed by Bonds? Was it Babe Ruth's all white player HR record or Hank Aaron's amphetamine era HR record? Both?

    I'm wondering how old you are because I'm wondering if you've ever seen a professional baseball game that lived up to your definition of integrity. Why is it again that you watch?
    So you have no problem indicting Hank Aaron on amphetamines but will defend a guy who tested positive for synthetic testosterone in an era riddled with PED use. Your becoming rather hypocritical with your viewpoints.

    We know full well Barry Bonds was involved in PED's. Hank Aaron, not so much. Unless you are going to defend Bonds now. Did his head grow naturally?
    Last edited by scott91575; 02-08-2013 at 05:44 PM.

  11. #190
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Nowhere in there did I say Braun's numbers were improved by his use of Steroids.
    You definitely implied that Braun was helped by something he injected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Whether it improves performance or not, doesn't matter. What matters is that is calls into question all the records created during the "Steroid Era." I'm not getting into Bonds.
    It absolutely makes a difference because if PEDs don't enhance performance there is nothing to call into question.

    If it's all just a matter of perception, I'd argue that Ruth's record is far more offensive because of the discrimination that defined the environment in which he played (and that's ignoring the rampant cheating in the culture of his era).

    One might argue that the modern game might actually be the most untainted-discrimination is not tolerated, players are well represented and no longer taken advantage of, the game is called at a higher caliber than any time in it's history, Tampa bay is just as likely to make it to the world series as New York and more players have access because of expansion and an effort to develop international players.

    While I'd love to time travel and watch Ruth in his prime, I would take modern baseball to a version during Ruth's era any day.

    MLB's blackout policy is far more offensive than it's drug testing policy.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #191
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott91575 View Post
    So you have no problem indicting Hank Aaron on amphetamines but will defend a guy who tested positive for synthetic testosterone in an era riddled with PED use. Your becoming rather hypocritical with your viewpoints.

    We know full well Barry Bonds was involved in PED's. Hank Aaron, not so much. Unless you are going to defend Bonds now. Did his head grow naturally?
    I kinda think reading for comprehension is important. I indicted the era that Hank played in-it doesn't matter if he was clean or not because his environment was dirty and you can't magically pull him out his context.

    Bonds is the greatest hitter I've ever seen and it's a farce that he isn't being inducted into the HOF this summer.

    I've been very consistent with my views on PEDs and baseball.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredmechanism View Post
    I am pretty sure MLB does test for HGH now.

    edit: http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/72...ording-sources
    Here is a portion of the drug policy addendum to the CBA that covers hGH:

    In addition, in any case involving a positive test result for hGH, the
    Commissionerís Office shall have the burden of establishing the presence of hGH in the Playerís blood specimen. As part of meeting that burden, the Commissionerís Office shall be required to establish the accuracy and reliability of the blood test administered to the Player. The Players Association and the Player may present any evidence in
    response, and the Partiesí agreement to allow the test to be conducted shall be irrelevant to the Arbitration Panelís determination as to whether the Commissionerís Office has met that burden. The Commissionerís Office is not required to otherwise establish intent, fault, negligence, or knowing use of hGH on the Playerís part to establish a violation.

  14. #193
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I have no idea why you think it takes a team of professionals to use PED's and not get caught. I already explained how the whole system works. The key to not getting caught is to just not be unlucky.
    I don't think that, at least not for limited usage. However, that's how Lance Armstrong did it, which makes him a horrible comp for any modern ballplayer. A baseball player can do it, but his manager, team doctor and teammates won't be helping him. He won't have the advantage of systematic support and he's not going to know when his random test is going to come. Basically he's got to use an outside chemist and/or trainer, and he's looking at a lot of self-management. Sooner or later, if you're a consistent user you stand to be caught because you don't have a lot of institutional support.

    I would suggest that you don't have the slightest clue as to what the actual key to not getting caught is, or if there even is such a thing.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  15. #194
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I kinda think reading for comprehension is important. I indicted the era that Hank played in-it doesn't matter if he was clean or not because his environment was dirty and you can't magically pull him out his context.

    Bonds is the greatest hitter I've ever seen and it's a farce that he isn't being inducted into the HOF this summer.

    I've been very consistent with my views on PEDs and baseball.
    The East Germans were awesome swimmers. Lance crushed everyone in cycling. Ben Johnson ran faster than anyone, ever. I'm not sad that they have been wiped from the books.

  16. #195
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    The East Germans were awesome swimmers. Lance crushed everyone in cycling. Ben Johnson ran faster than anyone, ever. I'm not sad that they have been wiped from the books.
    In the future they'll be able to wipe them from our memories once we enter Amerika


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