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Thread: Ryan Braun going down?

  1. #361
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    While Bosch's character and testimony maybe suspicious, lest we forget that we're speaking of a medical practice which specialized in weight loss and anti-aging treatments, and was shown to be distributing illegal substances to players.

    A Miami newspaper (which I'm certain some here think has a vendetta) was given files from the clinic by an ex-employee. These records showed strong evidence of improper practices. Bosch is confirming the already dubious connection.

    Say what you will about motives of Bosch, the newspaper, the ex-employee, but taken together, the evidence seems pretty strong in favor of the players purchasing steroids from Bosch.
    Well, we have yet to see any evidence but if that is the evidence, it is strong. It may actually be enough. But people are going to look at this guy and realize he's made a deal so his credibility isn't going to be the greatest. Not to mention a lot of these were cash deals.

    Obviously, these guys are going to be suspended. But there will be an appeals process and MLB isn't going to be the judge and jury.
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  3. #362
    Member joshua's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    I thought the language in the CBA was changed so that MLB can suspend players with enough reasonable evidence of PED use if they lack a positive test? Can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure that I read it somewhere...

    Either way, I don't know how anyone can believe a word out of Braun's mouth now. I can't even count how many people wanted to argue with me about whether or not Braun's test could have spontaneously created synthetic testosterone depending on the conditions it was kept in.
    Last edited by joshua; 06-05-2013 at 12:51 AM.

  4. #363
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Well, we have yet to see any evidence but if that is the evidence, it is strong. It may actually be enough. But people are going to look at this guy and realize he's made a deal so his credibility isn't going to be the greatest. Not to mention a lot of these were cash deals.

    Obviously, these guys are going to be suspended. But there will be an appeals process and MLB isn't going to be the judge and jury.
    Nuns and choirboys rarely testify in court.

    As long as his testimony matches up with the hard evidence, it'll be hard not to believe him.

    Personally, I think the union won't fight for these guys. Sure there will be an appeal process for all of them, but the union has standing orders from its members to crack down hard on offenders. Recently the union proposed stiffer penelties for offenders.

    Everyone wants these guys caught and punished as severly as possible... well, everyone except these guys and their agents.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  5. #364
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    While Bosch's character and testimony maybe suspicious, lest we forget that we're speaking of a medical practice which specialized in weight loss and anti-aging treatments, and was shown to be distributing illegal substances to players.

    A Miami newspaper (which I'm certain some here think has a vendetta) was given files from the clinic by an ex-employee. These records showed strong evidence of improper practices. Bosch is confirming the already dubious connection.

    Say what you will about motives of Bosch, the newspaper, the ex-employee, but taken together, the evidence seems pretty strong in favor of the players purchasing steroids from Bosch.
    But absent a test, MLB can't prove that a player actually took or possessed a banned substance. Bosch could have players autograph his bicep and then use the sigs as templates for tattoos and that still isn't a failed drug test. If Bud Selig evokes "just cause" to begin handing down PED suspensions without an actual drug test, I think MLB would be inviting a hard, public fight from players it targeted and a players union that likely had no intention of allowing him such open ended, discretionary powers especially if he tries to apply such a concept in a retroactive sense.
    Last edited by jojo; 06-05-2013 at 07:06 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #365
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Do we really believe MLB would suspend players for 100 games and not have enough proof to do it? REALLY?!?

    Think the "not as powerful as I used to be relative to drugs" Union wants to fan the flames of the U.S. gov't and have them get their noses into this again? Think again. They might be tough and powerful, but in no way do they want "others" investigating. This whole MLB, Union, etc gig pays well. Gotta know when to hold 'em, gotta know when to fold 'em. The Union leaders are not stupid. The crap has hit the fan. Game over (sorta). Blood samples will be next.

    Nice to see MLB go from "the McGwire/Sosa charade" to this era. I will always be skeptical of MLB and their love/motive of money b/c of the past. But Canseco's book, Congress involvement, etc... it has changed the mindset of MLB and the Union leaders. There will still be cheaters and companies who try to stay one step ahead of the testing. But nice to see "the change".

    How about one step further? For every 10 games you played with a suspended cheater on your 25-man roster... one win becomes a loss. Yep, start punishing the team. Go full force. Fans will be mad and front office types will be more selective about whom they pursue for their teams. No proof of when a player started doping? So what. If he is suspended right now (team has played 59 games), then the team has 5 wins turned into losses. If it happens in the off-season, then his team does not get penalized. A stretch? Sure, but keeps the game clean.
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    Do we really believe MLB would suspend players for 100 games and not have enough proof to do it? REALLY?!?

    Think the "not as powerful as I used to be relative to drugs" Union wants to fan the flames of the U.S. gov't and have them get their noses into this again? Think again. They might be tough and powerful, but in no way do they want "others" investigating. This whole MLB, Union, etc gig pays well. Gotta know when to hold 'em, gotta know when to fold 'em. The Union leaders are not stupid. The crap has hit the fan. Game over (sorta). Blood samples will be next.

    Nice to see MLB go from "the McGwire/Sosa charade" to this era. I will always be skeptical of MLB and their love/motive of money b/c of the past. But Canseco's book, Congress involvement, etc... it has changed the mindset of MLB and the Union leaders. There will still be cheaters and companies who try to stay one step ahead of the testing. But nice to see "the change".

    How about one step further? For every 10 games you played with a suspended cheater on your 25-man roster... one win becomes a loss. Yep, start punishing the team. Go full force. Fans will be mad and front office types will be more selective about whom they pursue for their teams. No proof of when a player started doping? So what. If he is suspended right now (team has played 59 games), then the team has 5 wins turned into losses. If it happens in the off-season, then his team does not get penalized. A stretch? Sure, but keeps the game clean.
    Agree with this post. You would think that after all that has come out in baseball and other sports in recent years, fans would stop acting surprised and even defending the athletes. Some fans are in denial.

    If you are going to try to have a clean sport you owe it to the players who aren't cheating to punish the ones who are. Either they have to throw out all the rules and say "anything goes" or you have to try to regulate the game, catch cheaters, and at least create the threat that cheaters will get caught.

    There are ways to catch cheaters. Random drug checks even in the off-season are effective. If they store blood samples for future testing, it creates the threat that even if you're using something that can't be detected now, it might be 5 years from now. That is how they caught Lance Armstrong; his 1999 blood sample showed EPO when tested several years later. There was no test for EPO in 1999.

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    But absent a test, MLB can't prove that a player actually took or possessed a banned substance. Bosch could have players autograph his bicep and then use the sigs as templates for tattoos and that still isn't a failed drug test. If Bud Selig evokes "just cause" to begin handing down PED suspensions without an actual drug test, I think MLB would be inviting a hard, public fight from players it targeted and a players union that likely had no intention of allowing him such open ended, discretionary powers especially if he tries to apply such a concept in a retroactive sense.
    not true. People go to jail every day based purely on what someone said or testified to.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roush's socks View Post
    not true. People go to jail every day based purely on what someone said or testified to.
    Bud Selig, players and owners have to adhere to a collectively bargained contract. That's what we're talking about.

    Bud isn't a district attorney. He's basically a partner in a contractual agreement.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #369
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Bud Selig, players and owners have to adhere to a collectively bargained contract. That's what we're talking about.

    Bud isn't a district attorney. He's basically a partner in a contractual agreement.
    Like I said earlier, I think union wants to take a tough stand against PED use now. I doubt they fight these accusations too hard.

    The players who are clean are sick of this, and want the cheaters tossed. The clean players make up a vast majority of the union, and have told them they want tougher PED use penalties.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  11. #370
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Like I said earlier, I think union wants to take a tough stand against PED use now. I doubt they fight these accusations too hard.

    The players who are clean are sick of this, and want the cheaters tossed. The clean players make up a vast majority of the union, and have told them they want tougher PED use penalties.
    That may be. It also may be that these guys would rather accept their suspensions and possibly be back for the stretch run. Although I would guess someone like Braun will fight this tooth and nail with or without the union since he fought that first "positive" test enough to get it overturned.
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawhitham View Post
    any examples
    All I know is when I was studying sports management at Ohio University, we were not aloud to use ESPN as a source. Kind of like how you arent aloud to use Wikipedia as a source for anything.

    ESPN is very guilty of hearing something once and then writing a huge story on it before any facts or anything else is present to them. They think oh i heard it first so im just going to start writing things as fast as possible and get it to the public. And most of the time its not even worthy of an actual story yet they will spend a whole show on it. ESPN is garbage

  13. #372
    Retro-Gamer Krawhitham's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Bud Selig, players and owners have to adhere to a collectively bargained contract. That's what we're talking about.

    Bud isn't a district attorney. He's basically a partner in a contractual agreement.
    And he has a "for the good of the game" clause

  14. #373
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawhitham View Post
    And he has a "for the good of the game" clause
    He is not going to suspend players for PED use by evoking the "for the good of the game clause".
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #374
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Gov't sniffing around is all Bud and the Union needs to know to start suspending players. Before that Bud and the Union knew about it and did nothing but make money. The FEDS worry more than those who keep a still in the woods. I am quite sure players getting jail sentences would not bode well for MLB, the Union or the players.

    Many of us probably laughed when the gov't made this their business (I did). But it seems to have changed the game. And changed it for the better. The gov't doing something good almost makes me want to purchase a PowerBall ticket. Not sure that has happened for at least 5 years.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  16. #375
    Member NebraskaRed's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Braun out of the lineup tonight. They say it has nothing to do with this scandal.

    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight

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