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Thread: Ryan Braun going down?

  1. #61
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    JoJo - You can buy the BS about the sample deteriorating over the weekend. It's just not factual. I find the burying of one's head in the sand and buying into these excuses just another reason that baseball doesn't take PEDS seriously.

    Bum
    Actually you don't have a clue whether the sample results were biologically compromised or not and that is the point. It is absolutely factual to state that how a sample is handled and stored can significantly impact the integrity of the sample. What we know is that Braun's sample wasn't handled according to the protocol that was collectively bargained as a standard that ensured sample integrity. The arbitrator simply ruled that given the chain of command issues, he doesn't have a clue. I don't have a clue either but it is possible given how the sample was handled that his positive could have been erroneous. I seriously doubt that there is a sinlg eperson on Redszone who would find the way Braun's sample was handled acceptable for their own sample if their livelihood rested upon the results of tests on it.

    You've adopted a pretty definitive position about the reliability of Braun's test results but lack the information necessary to support it. You're offended by PED use and have adopted a position concerning player guilt that is consistent with your preconceived conclusion.

    It's a strange position to take when accusing others of bias.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #62
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Actually you don't have a clue whether the sample results were biologically compromised or not and that is the point. It is absolutely factual to state that how a sample is handled and stored can significantly impact the integrity of the sample. What we know is that Braun's sample wasn't handled according to the protocol that was collectively bargained as a standard that ensured sample integrity. The arbitrator simply ruled that given the chain of command issues, he doesn't have a clue. I don't have a clue either but it is possible given how the sample was handled that his positive could have been erroneous. I seriously doubt that there is a sinlg eperson on Redszone who would find the way Braun's sample was handled acceptable for their own sample if their livelihood rested upon the results of tests on it.

    You've adopted a pretty definitive position about the reliability of Braun's test results but lack the information necessary to support it. You're offended by PED use and have adopted a position concerning player guilt that is consistent with your preconceived conclusion.

    It's a strange position to take when accusing others of bias.
    You have taken the position that BOTH samples were tampered with. I have not. There is no proof whatsoever that either sample was tampered with. So, to you, the guy that took the sample is guilty and that's OK. But me taking the position that both samples tested positive and no proof was ever made that either sample was tampered with is a "strange position to take." Ok...

    Braun is walking around with smoke flying out of his body and half of the people on here and most in Milwaukee want to just stick their head in the sand. I find that to be a "strange position to take..."

    Bum

    Edit: I say that is your position, because if BOTH samples were not PROVEN to have been tampered with then Braun is guilty. Clearly the Arbiter didn't go that far and let Braun off with his EXCUSES. Just another example of baseball not taking PEDS seriously. The arbitration hearing was a joke and should have never been allowed to have been completed without proof of tampering. There was none of course or it would have been presented.
    Last edited by Bumstead; 02-07-2013 at 11:10 AM.

  4. #63
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Dan Patrick said today that another name is going to break today from the Padres organization, and it's not a big name. I wonder if it's the guy that some of us are all thinking.

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Dan Patrick said today that another name is going to break today from the Padres organization, and it's not a big name. I wonder if it's the guy that some of us are all thinking.
    If it isn't, my guess is that this is the guy.

    "I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy (Scott Williamson) cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pťrignon couldn't cleanse it." -- Creek14

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    You have taken the position that BOTH samples were tampered with. I have not. There is no proof whatsoever that either sample was tampered with. So, to you, the guy that took the sample is guilty and that's OK. But me taking the position that both samples tested positive and no proof was ever made that either sample was tampered with is a "strange position to take." Ok...

    Braun is walking around with smoke flying out of his body and half of the people on here and most in Milwaukee want to just stick their head in the sand. I find that to be a "strange position to take..."

    Bum

    Edit: I say that is your position, because if BOTH samples were not PROVEN to have been tampered with then Braun is guilty. Clearly the Arbiter didn't go that far and let Braun off with his EXCUSES. Just another example of baseball not taking PEDS seriously. The arbitration hearing was a joke and should have never been allowed to have been completed without proof of tampering. There was none of course or it would have been presented.
    Nowhere have I suggested any sample was tampered with. To me, it's pretty obvious that the collectively bargained procedure for sample handling was violated and it's possible that as a result the sample integrity was compromised. That position derives objectively from fact.

    Proof of tampering absolutely was NOT needed. MLB failed to guarantee that sample integrity wasn't compromised. Those are two distinctly separate issues. You shouldn't brush with such broad strokes.

    BTW, you've continually mischaracterized my position and it seems to be because you keep viewing this issue through a preconceived filter.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Dan Patrick said today that another name is going to break today from the Padres organization, and it's not a big name. I wonder if it's the guy that some of us are all thinking.
    I heard that as well....and wondered if it was part of the reason the Reds dumped all three players in a trade to the Pads.


    I'm sick of the the mockery the game of baseball is receiving. This needs to get fixed, and fixed quickly.

    Gambling was once a major issue in baseball....and it was dealt with in a 'buck stops here' approach in 1919/20. It may take that significant of an approach for MLB to get past this ugly part of it's existance.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    My memory is hazy but if there were two samples and both came back as positive there may be something to this. In regards to the miss handling or corrupting of the evidence it also may have happened. But then I have to ask were any seals broken? Also I dont know if the courier left it out of the fridge and if he did would that lead to a chemical reaction leading to a positive test? As always one question leads to another it seems.

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Dan Patrick said today that another name is going to break today from the Padres organization, and it's not a big name. I wonder if it's the guy that some of us are all thinking.
    I heard that as well....and wondered if it was part of the reason the Reds dumped all three players in a trade to the Pads.


    I'm sick of the the mockery the game of baseball is receiving. This needs to get fixed, and fixed quickly.

    Gambling was once a major issue in baseball....and it was dealt with in a 'buck stops here' approach in 1919/20. It may take that significant of an approach for MLB to get past this ugly part of it's existance.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

  10. #69
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Dan Patrick said today that another name is going to break today from the Padres organization, and it's not a big name. I wonder if it's the guy that some of us are all thinking.
    Not a big name and from the Padres...doesn't that narrow it down to everyone on their roster?

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Nowhere have I suggested any sample was tampered with. To me, it's pretty obvious that the collectively bargained procedure for sample handling was violated and it's possible that as a result the sample integrity was compromised. That position derives objectively from fact.

    Proof of tampering absolutely was NOT needed. MLB failed to guarantee that sample integrity wasn't compromised. Those are two distinctly separate issues. You shouldn't brush with such broad strokes.

    BTW, you've continually mischaracterized my position and it seems to be because you keep viewing this issue through a preconceived filter.
    This is your opinion and not mine. I assume it is in the collective bargaining agreement but that is of no consequence to me. It just confirms to me that MLB ownership and MLB players aren't taking the issue seriously. There is ZERO proof that the either sample (there were 2 that were both POSITIVE) was tampered with. That makes the idea of him being innocent almost impossible.

    I agree, you have taken the position of covering your eyes with your hand and saying you have no idea. I think in doing that, you have firmly established your position. Baseball can be a bunch of spineless wonders in handling this issue or they can take a stand and put a stop to it regardless of the players desires. Until they do that, it's all just puffing on their part. They don't care.

    Unless Braun changes his injection habits, he's going to burst into flames at some point. Hard for a fire not to start with this much smoke. The suggestion that he has ever "proven" his innocence is comical to say the least. Baseball already established his guilt. Getting off on a technicality is just that, a technicality that proves nothing in the least.

    We can keep going, or not. I care about the integrity of baseball and the tradition of the records that have been established over the 100+ years. Some don't care how the records are set. Obviously, one is free to make that choice and I am free to disagree.

    Bum

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Not a big name and from the Padres...doesn't that narrow it down to everyone on their roster?
    Except Chase Headly

  14. #72
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Not a big name and from the Padres...doesn't that narrow it down to everyone on their roster?
    Rimshot.

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    This is your opinion and not mine. I assume it is in the collective bargaining agreement but that is of no consequence to me. It just confirms to me that MLB ownership and MLB players aren't taking the issue seriously. There is ZERO proof that the either sample (there were 2 that were both POSITIVE) was tampered with. That makes the idea of him being innocent almost impossible.
    Nowhere has it been argued that the samples were tampered with. But they did sit for several days in an environment where the temperature wasn't controlled or monitored. The courier can not prove whether they were stored at 50 or 100 degrees. It's a problem and none of us would consider that a trivial detail if it were OUR sample especially since we know that the way a sample is handled can artificially alter the level of metabolites that the test detects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    I agree, you have taken the position of covering your eyes with your hand and saying you have no idea. I think in doing that, you have firmly established your position.
    No. What I've done is objectively look at the limitations of the facts and modified the strength of my argument accordingly. Your lack of willingness to do the same undercuts your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Baseball can be a bunch of spineless wonders in handling this issue or they can take a stand and put a stop to it regardless of the players desires. Until they do that, it's all just puffing on their part. They don't care.
    Baseball has actually overreacted by over-zealously posturing on this issue to the point that they are actually hurting themselves unnecessarily in order to argue they are returning the game back to some mythical state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Unless Braun changes his injection habits, he's going to burst into flames at some point. Hard for a fire not to start with this much smoke. The suggestion that he has ever "proven" his innocence is comical to say the least. Baseball already established his guilt. Getting off on a technicality is just that, a technicality that proves nothing in the least.
    What smoke? He had a sample test positive and as part of his defense, his legal team consulted with an expert on doping. There is a perfectly reasonable interpretation that you are rejecting out of hand without good justification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    We can keep going, or not. I care about the integrity of baseball and the tradition of the records that have been established over the 100+ years. Some don't care how the records are set. Obviously, one is free to make that choice and I am free to disagree.

    Bum
    I care deeply about the integrity of our historical record. Some clearly care more about fantasy. They are free to make that choice but I challenge why they care about baseball in the first place.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Nowhere has it been argued that the samples were tampered with. But they did sit for several days in an environment where the temperature wasn't controlled or monitored. The courier can not prove whether they were stored at 50 or 100 degrees. It's a problem and none of us would consider that a trivial detail if it were OUR sample especially since we know that the way a sample is handled can artificially alter the level of metabolites that the test detects.



    No. What I've done is objectively look at the limitations of the facts and modified the strength of my argument accordingly. Your lack of willingness to do the same undercuts your position.



    Baseball has actually overreacted by over-zealously posturing on this issue to the point that they are actually hurting themselves unnecessarily in order to argue they are returning the game back to some mythical state.



    What smoke? He had a sample test positive and as part of his defense, his legal team consulted with an expert on doping. There is a perfectly reasonable interpretation that you are rejecting out of hand without good justification.



    I care deeply about the integrity of our historical record. Some clearly care more about fantasy. They are free to make that choice but I challenge why they care about baseball in the first place.
    I can quote various times within this diatribe where you claim superiority. It's a sad way to argue your opinion. I disagree with you. Sorry, that doesn't make you superior or right in any way. There have been plenty of respected people that have said that regardless of whether the sample was in a refrigerator or not, that chemical makeup of the sample would not be altered. 2 samples, 2 positive tests; left in a basement (100 degrees? really? exaggeration helps your argument or basically accusing someone of tampering with nothing to back it up helps?).

    I agree we don't agree. You have an opinion that you think is factual. It's not. The "holier than thou" attitude makes discussion of the issue a waste of time.

    Over-reaction...comical. They have done virtually the minimum to stop the use of illegal drugs in MLB.

    Carry-on.

    Bum

    Edit: I'm not a baseball player, I don't have a sample; this isn't an issue that my fellow co-workers created now is it?

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Nowhere have I suggested any sample was tampered with. To me, it's pretty obvious that the collectively bargained procedure for sample handling was violated and it's possible that as a result the sample integrity was compromised. That position derives objectively from fact.

    Proof of tampering absolutely was NOT needed. MLB failed to guarantee that sample integrity wasn't compromised. Those are two distinctly separate issues. You shouldn't brush with such broad strokes.

    BTW, you've continually mischaracterized my position and it seems to be because you keep viewing this issue through a preconceived filter.
    Jojo, I think you are guilty of the same broad brush stroke here. The fact that a negotiated rule was not followed does not justify, in and of itself, a doubt as to the results of the test. It depends on the nature of the rule, doesn't it?

    In this case, it appears that the violation was that the collector took the sample from Braun at 4:30 pm but by the time he was able to get out of the stadium it was 5 pm and no FedEx office was open within a 50 mile radius. The negotiated agreement said that samples must be mailed the same day they are collected IF the FedEx office is open, but if the office is closed, the collector is instructed to take the sample home and store it exactly as it was stored in this case. The agreement prohibits using a Fed-Ex Drop Box. Braun's team argued that because he could have driven to a FedEx store that was more than 50 miles away and still mailed the specimen, he did not follow the express language of the agreement that "...absent unusual circumstances, the specimens should be sent by FedEx to the laboratory on the same day they are collected."

    Imagine if the violated rule was that the sample would be mailed/shipped using Federal Express. Imagine if the collector, realizing it was 50 miles to the nearest Fedex office, but only 40 miles to the lab where he was mailing the sample, drove the 40 miles and delivered the sample rather than mailing it.

    In both examples (mail that night/use Federal express) the violation of the rule only brings into question the authenticity of the urine sample IF one can show how the violation actually increased the chances of tampering or mishandling. If you cannot show this, then it would be the quintessential "technicality."

    The manner in which the sample was treated was a negotiated, agreed upon alternate method of sample handling. The only objection was whether or not the facts justified the alternate handling... not whether that alternate handling was a safe process... the Union had agreed that it was.

    Just my 2 cents.


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