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Thread: Ryan Braun going down?

  1. #91
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's my understanding that Braun's team was able to duplicate his positive test result on a confirmed clean sample that was then handled as the courier had handled Braun's original sample.

    MLB lost on process and I think they didn't appeal because of the can of worms that this situation would apparently open.
    That is relevant info as well, good to know.

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  3. #92
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's my understanding that Braun's team was able to duplicate his positive test result on a confirmed clean sample that was then handled as the courier had handled Braun's original sample.

    MLB lost on process and I think they didn't appeal because of the can of worms that this situation would apparently open.
    I have never heard this. Can you provide a link?

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's my understanding that Braun's team was able to duplicate his positive test result on a confirmed clean sample that was then handled as the courier had handled Braun's original sample.

    MLB lost on process and I think they didn't appeal because of the can of worms that this situation would apparently open.
    So, Braun peed into another cup and it came up positive? Remarkable...but, wait, this one was clean! Sorry...seemed logical to me. And magically, testosterone readings jumped out of thin air...Seriously? What is it in our environment that could even cause this? Please provide a link so that I may be fascinated by such scientific "knowledge."

    "And that your honor, um...is the god's honest truth...yeah, that needle mark in top of that "clean" speciman is just a deformity in the plastic. Uh yeah."

    I understand the BS that resulted in him not being suspended. That by no means makes him innocent or even believable. So, I would guess A-Rod is innocent too? Well, other than that one time...I bet he never inhaled when he smoked pot either...

    Bum

  5. #94
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    The argument is simple. The reliability of the test can be affected by how the sample is stored and handled. MLB did not guarantee that wasn't the case with Braun because they did not comply with collectively bargained guidelines to ensure this wouldn't be an issue.
    In any given case, the existence of a rule to prevent a possible mistake does not mean a violation of that rule proves that mistake to be possible.

    For your argument to fly, the Defense team has to present one plausible theory as to how it COULD have happened that would not be rebutted by the other facts in the case, otherwise they are left with only a technicality and a prophylatic ruling. (i.e. yes he did it, but to punish the accuser for not following the rules, we are going to let him walk).

    For example, a murder suspect confesses to a murder, and as part of that confession, takes the police to where the body is hidden, and with the body he also hid video and audio recordings of him actually committing the murder. If the original confession was collected in violation of his 5th amendment rights, then everything is excluded (confession, body and tapes) and the guy walks even though we would be absolutely certain that he committed the murder. Why? A prophylatic ruling on a technicality to protect the system.

    I can use the same fifth amendment rule to rebut your example. The Miranda warnings exist to prevent suspects from giving involuntary confessions. We make cops say the warnings to ensure every suspect is aware of their rights prior to confessing. Imagine a police officer does not provide the proper warning to a suspect and instead jumps right into interrogation. In response, the suspect confesses.

    Your argument is that this confession should be treated as involuntary because the rules violation made an involuntary confession possible. However, if the government can show that minutes before the interrogation, the accused, a law professor, had just finished giving a class on the fifth amendment rights of suspects, this possibility would be eliminated.

    In this case, the evidence appears to rebut the possibility of mishandling or tampering linked to or cause by the rule violation.

    One final example... dang am I wordy today... if the rule said that the collector was required to check Ryan Braun's driver's license prior to the test to ensure he was testing the right person and he failed to check Braun's driver's license, would that make the sample he collected invalid even if the lab was able to do DNA testing on the sample to verify it was Braun's?

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Do you know what the test actually detects and how it works? It's important relative to sample handling.

    And no, the sample couldn't have literally just sat around for years without affecting the integrity of the test as someone earlier suggested.
    You completely ignored my point. He tested positive for synthetic testosterone. That does not happen magically, no matter how long it sits. The only way that gets in a sample is either someone tampered with it or he was taking synthetic testosterone. You can belabor the point all you want, but it does not answer how synthetic testosterone got into his sample.

    I am not saying he should have been found guilty. Protocol is there for a reason, and the integrity of that must be defended even if it means a guilty man is found innocent. Yet if you believe Braun is innocent, then you have to believe the sample was tampered with. It was not because it sat around too long.

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's my understanding that Braun's team was able to duplicate his positive test result on a confirmed clean sample that was then handled as the courier had handled Braun's original sample.

    MLB lost on process and I think they didn't appeal because of the can of worms that this situation would apparently open.
    I did some searching for this and every mention and link I can find comes back to unnamed sources linked to the defense team after the hearing was over.

    The defense team has never made any such public pronouncement. Don't tell me they can't or they wouldn't, because this simple assertion could be made without actually disclosing anything about the MLB testing procedures and so is not subject to the confidentiality and gag orders attached to the hearing.

    The defense team could have simply said "We were able to replicate the same result starting with clean urine and following the same storage process."
    They never did prior to, during or after the hearing. They allowed their client to continue to be villified in the press rather than choosing to make this simple statement? They made many official statements before during and after the hearing that detailed specific aspects of the testing process... but they never made this general statement that discloses nothing confidential?

    I do not believe that this hearsay within hearsay from an anonymous source has even the slightest indicia of credibility.

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's my understanding that Braun's team was able to duplicate his positive test result on a confirmed clean sample that was then handled as the courier had handled Braun's original sample.
    They duplicated the positive result, not that they let it sit around for the amount of time and then it became positive. I guarantee you that if you a sample sit out for 40 hours and tested it, it's not coming back positive for synthetic testosterone. Yet if you added synthetic testosterone to the sample, yes, it will. All they proved is they could recreate a false positive, but I guarantee you they did not let a normal urine sample sit around for a few days and suddenly it came back with synthetic testosterone. If that was even in the realm of possibility it would take an immense amount of time, effort, and money to even come up with something like that.

    His whole argument the whole time was the sample could have been tampered with it. I have no idea why you keep fighting this battle about a sample magically getting synthetic testosterone by sitting around for while. It simply does not happen. That is why they do a second test for synthetic testosterone after they find abnormal levels of testosterone. Testosterone levels can change over time skewing the ratio, but at no point does that cause production of synthetic testosterone.
    Last edited by scott91575; 02-07-2013 at 04:47 PM.

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott91575 View Post
    You completely ignored my point. He tested positive for synthetic testosterone. That does not happen magically, no matter how long it sits. The only way that gets in a sample is either someone tampered with it or he was taking synthetic testosterone. You can belabor the point all you want, but it does not answer how synthetic testosterone got into his sample.

    I am not saying he should have been found guilty. Protocol is there for a reason, and the integrity of that must be defended even if it means a guilty man is found innocent. Yet if you believe Braun is innocent, then you have to believe the sample was tampered with. It was not because it sat around too long.
    You're missing my point....what is it exactly that he tested positive for? You need to find the answer to that question before you move on to "the only way that...." statements...
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
    I have never heard this. Can you provide a link?
    http://www.amazon.com/Braun-Wins-App...dp/B007D2IJ3I/

    http://audio.weei.com/a/52238582/wil...overturned.htm
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #100
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    So, Braun peed into another cup and it came up positive? Remarkable...but, wait, this one was clean! Sorry...seemed logical to me. And magically, testosterone readings jumped out of thin air...Seriously? What is it in our environment that could even cause this? Please provide a link so that I may be fascinated by such scientific "knowledge."

    "And that your honor, um...is the god's honest truth...yeah, that needle mark in top of that "clean" speciman is just a deformity in the plastic. Uh yeah."

    I understand the BS that resulted in him not being suspended. That by no means makes him innocent or even believable. So, I would guess A-Rod is innocent too? Well, other than that one time...I bet he never inhaled when he smoked pot either...

    Bum
    I'm actually becoming convinced that you really aren't familiar with the details of his suspension and appeal.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #101
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott91575 View Post
    They duplicated the positive result, not that they let it sit around for the amount of time and then it became positive. I guarantee you that if you a sample sit out for 40 hours and tested it, it's not coming back positive for synthetic testosterone. Yet if you added synthetic testosterone to the sample, yes, it will. All they proved is they could recreate a false positive, but I guarantee you they did not let a normal urine sample sit around for a few days and suddenly it came back with synthetic testosterone. If that was even in the realm of possibility it would take an immense amount of time, effort, and money to even come up with something like that.

    His whole argument the whole time was the sample could have been tampered with it. I have no idea why you keep fighting this battle about a sample magically getting synthetic testosterone by sitting around for while. It simply does not happen. That is why they do a second test for synthetic testosterone after they find abnormal levels of testosterone. Testosterone levels can change over time skewing the ratio, but at no point does that cause production of synthetic testosterone.
    His primary argument wasn't that his sample was tampered with.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You're missing my point....what is it exactly that he tested positive for? You need to find the answer to that question before you move on to "the only way that...." statements...
    He tested positive for synthetic testosterone. I have stated it probably close to 10 times now. It's a fact. You can find it all over the internet. Why do you continue to ignore things that I write?

    They tested his initial sample and it showed a 3:1 ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. A normal sample has a 1:1 ratio or close to it. This sets the red flag, but if a sample sits long enough either of them can break down changing the ratio (if the epitestosterone broke down faster that could cause a false positive). So, they then do another test for the type of testosterone in the sample. It came can as exogenic, or coming from outside his body (in other words, synthetic testosterone). The b sample tested the same. There is only two ways for that to happen. He took testosterone, or the sample was tampered with.

  15. #103
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    His primary argument wasn't that his sample was tampered with.
    I double checked, yes, his legal defense was not tampering. It was based on incorrect protocol. Yet Braun, in his initial press conference, stated it must have been tampered with. So yes, I will correct that. Of course the actual reason for a defense does not offer a reason for the false test. It was a technicality that was used by the defense, not that the test itself was tampered with.

    In the end, the fact remains he tested positive for synthetic testosterone. The only way that happes is if the sample was tampered with or he used synthetic testosterone. You be the judge.

  16. #104
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    BTW...here is an article on the whole thing. Braun's defense never addressed why the sample came back positive. They simply attacked the fact the test took 48 hours to ship, yet it in no way explains why there was synthetic testosterone in the sample.

    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...doping-experts

    The reason for him being found not guilty was a technicality, not that they proved the sample was wrong.

  17. #105
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    Re: Ryan Braun going down?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott91575 View Post
    He tested positive for synthetic testosterone. I have stated it probably close to 10 times now. It's a fact. You can find it all over the internet. Why do you continue to ignore things that I write?

    They tested his initial sample and it showed a 3:1 ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. A normal sample has a 1:1 ratio or close to it. This sets the red flag, but if a sample sits long enough either of them can break down changing the ratio (if the epitestosterone broke down faster that could cause a false positive). So, they then do another test for the type of testosterone in the sample. It came can as exogenic, or coming from outside his body (in other words, synthetic testosterone). The b sample tested the same. There is only two ways for that to happen. He took testosterone, or the sample was tampered with.
    A 3:1 ratio of T to E is within normal ranges and Braun would have had no issues if his T:E had only been 3:1.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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