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Thread: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

  1. #16
    Member GADawg's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    i'll be especially happy about acquiring Choo when the Reds and tribe hook up...Choo was a Reds killer it seems

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  3. #17
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    IMO, the concept of Phillips hitting second and Frazier sixth is a mistake. I'd switch them. I know it won't happen, but I'd go with Frazier hitting second in the lineup and Phillips sixth.

    Phillips had a lower OBP and lower walk rate than Frazier last year. And Phillips hits into a lot of double plays. Concern is that Choo gets on base but then gets erased by a BP double play.

    I'm not bashing Phillips, he is a good hitter with excellent power who gets into grooves hitting to right field. For a second baseman, his offensive is very good.

    But I'd prefer him in the sixth spot. And with no other good alternative, I'd hit Frazier second. Hanigan is very slow to hit second. Cozart's OBP is too low.

    I'd try Todd hitting after Choo.

  4. #18
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Hitting Frazier at the top of the lineup would be a mistake. Too many swiings and misses for me. Leave him in 6th and watch the bottom of the lineup light up. But I'd like to see Rolen every third day in the lineup and contriuting, but the longetr we go, the less likely we will see him. No one defends third like Scotty. Perect form. Bring him back.
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  5. #19
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve4192 View Post
    Flip Cozart and Hannigan IMO.

    I want a tough out batting in front of the pitcher, to minimize the amount of times the pitcher winds up leading off an inning. I like Zach, but he gives away a lot of at bats. I don't want to see that with two outs and the pitcher on deck.
    I'm not sure how putting Cozart in front of Hanigan makes it less likely for the pitcher to lead off the next inning. For the pitcher to lead off an inning it means both Cozart and Hanigan batted in the prior inning.

    Putting Hanigan's high OBP in the 7th slot makes it more likely the 8th hitter comes up in the first place. I would rather have the 8th hitter come to the plate with 2 outs and a runner on base than have him lead off the next inning instead.

    Due to Cozart's poor OBP it would be wise to limit his plate appearances as much as possible by putting him at the bottom of the lineup. Each subsequent spot in the lineup gets 18 fewer plate appearances per season on average. I would rather have Hanigan get those extra ABs than Cozart.

    It is not a major difference though, but that is what I would do. Of course, I would also have Votto's .450+ OBP batting 2nd instead of 3rd too.

  6. #20
    Arbiter of Good Taste OGB's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    While I agree the defense won't be quite as good as the past two seasons, I think this will be by far our most well rounded offense since 1999. Frazier over Rolen is a big upgrade at 3rd. Choo over Stubbs is an enormous upgrade in center. Phillips and Ludwick may be a tad less effective this year due to age, but hopefully that means the opposite for Bruce, Cozart, Frazier, and Mesoraco.

    Choo is playing for a contract, so I'm expecting one of the better seasons from an OF'er this franchise has seen in a decade or more.
    I may not be fast, but I sure am slow.

  7. #21
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I'm not sure how putting Cozart in front of Hanigan makes it less likely for the pitcher to lead off the next inning. For the pitcher to lead off an inning it means both Cozart and Hanigan batted in the prior inning.

    Putting Hanigan's high OBP in the 7th slot makes it more likely the 8th hitter comes up in the first place. I would rather have the 8th hitter come to the plate with 2 outs and a runner on base than have him lead off the next inning instead.

    Due to Cozart's poor OBP it would be wise to limit his plate appearances as much as possible by putting him at the bottom of the lineup. Each subsequent spot in the lineup gets 18 fewer plate appearances per season on average. I would rather have Hanigan get those extra ABs than Cozart.

    It is not a major difference though, but that is what I would do. Of course, I would also have Votto's .450+ OBP batting 2nd instead of 3rd too.
    I'm guessing Cozart's hitting will be negatively impacted by hitting in front of the pitcher while Hanigan's is positively impacted hitting there. The 8th hitter gets pitched around a bit with the pitcher on deck. Hanigan takes advantage of that by letting the opposition walk him and it helps his OBP considerably IMO. In the 7th spot, I'd guess pitchers will come at Hanigan and his overall OBP and production will drop. OTOH, if Cozart gets pitched around, he may expand his zone and lower his OBP even farther as he chases. I'd guess that both Cozart and Hanigan would benefit by Hanigan hitting in front of the pitcher and Cozart not doing so. I'd hit Cozart 7th. His occassional power and ability to run fits better there as well.
    Last edited by mth123; 02-08-2013 at 04:41 AM.
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  9. #22
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Subbing Choo for Stubbs is a dramatic increase in production. It takes a complete and utter mess who was the worst offensive player in the line-up out and replaces him with an all star caliber bat. I don't think there is any question that Choo won't cover the gaps as well as Stubs did, but, IMO, Stubbs had real problems on balls in front of him and frequently pulled up and played balls on a hop that should have been outs. Stubbs looked better than he played out there IMO. I don't think the defensive drop-off will be nearly as big as its been made out to be. We go from an overall average defensive CF to a slightly below average one. Meanwhile the offensive improvement will be substantial.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  11. #23
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I'm not sure how putting Cozart in front of Hanigan makes it less likely for the pitcher to lead off the next inning. For the pitcher to lead off an inning it means both Cozart and Hanigan batted in the prior inning.

    Putting Hanigan's high OBP in the 7th slot makes it more likely the 8th hitter comes up in the first place. I would rather have the 8th hitter come to the plate with 2 outs and a runner on base than have him lead off the next inning instead.
    One of the reasons that Hannigan gets alot of walks is becuase he has the patience to take a walk when it's presented to him.

    When he bats 8th pitchers will often pitch aroind him with two outs and the pitcher coming up. The walk allows us to turn over the lineup.

    Hannagan would not have nearly as mant walks hitting 7th. And Cozart likley doesn't have the plate discipline to take the walk if presented nearly as much. IMO, we would turn the lineup over less often.

  12. #24
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    One of the reasons that Hannigan gets alot of walks is becuase he has the patience to take a walk when it's presented to him.

    When he bats 8th pitchers will often pitch aroind him with two outs and the pitcher coming up. The walk allows us to turn over the lineup.

    Hannagan would not have nearly as mant walks hitting 7th. And Cozart likley doesn't have the plate discipline to take the walk if presented nearly as much. IMO, we would turn the lineup over less often.
    Agreed, much is made of Hannigan's obp, which it should be, but part of the that is due to the fact he hits in front of the pitcher and has the plate discipline to take a walk. I hit him 8th and Cozart 7th.
    I'm also in the camp that Brandon hitting second scares me a little, due to the fact that he hits into so many dp. Not sure what or if there is a better option though.

  13. #25
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    BP hitting second will be a boon, IMO. I predict 23 HR from Brandon, maybe more if he stays healthy and gets a few less starts to stay fresh. If Choo is on first, Brandon has shown an aptitude for hitting the ball the other way - second only to Votto. He is also the best option in late game situations, as I think he's better than any with an 0-2 count.

  14. #26
    Member smixsell's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Quote Originally Posted by mdccclxix View Post
    BP hitting second will be a boon, IMO. I predict 23 HR from Brandon, maybe more if he stays healthy and gets a few less starts to stay fresh. If Choo is on first, Brandon has shown an aptitude for hitting the ball the other way - second only to Votto. He is also the best option in late game situations, as I think he's better than any with an 0-2 count.
    I agree wholeheartedly. It's one of the main reasons I think our batting order will be truly "transformed" by Choo's presence. Not so sure about 23 HR, though it possible. The main thing I'm expecting from BP in the 2 spot are lots of "battling waks" and base hits the other way with Choo on first, and a high BA and OBP out of DatDude as a result.
    Last edited by smixsell; 02-08-2013 at 01:14 PM.

  15. #27
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Quote Originally Posted by mdccclxix View Post
    BP hitting second will be a boon, IMO. I predict 23 HR from Brandon, maybe more if he stays healthy and gets a few less starts to stay fresh. If Choo is on first, Brandon has shown an aptitude for hitting the ball the other way - second only to Votto. He is also the best option in late game situations, as I think he's better than any with an 0-2 count.
    Key to hitting second between Choo and Votto is keeping rallies going, setting up the big inning.

    BP had a low OBP of .321 last year, a low walk rate of 4.5 percent, and hits into a lot of DPs.

    As much as I admire BP's skills as a hitter, it's hard for me to see how he is a good fit for that second spot in the order. I suppose he's good enough to change his style a bit, but I'd rather see BP hit sixth. BP did change his style a bit when he hit leadoff in 2011 -- hope he reverts to the more patient style next year.

    As for Choo's defense, somebody called him slightly below average in CF. I hope that's correct but at this point it's guesswork. We really have no idea how it will work out, just hope for the best.
    Last edited by Kc61; 02-08-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  16. #28
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Quite frankly, I think by the end of the season we'll see Hamilton in center, with Choo in left. I love Ludwick and his attitude, but think he's going to have a hard time duplicating last year. If he gets off to the kind of start he did last year, and Hamilton is tearing up AAA, while Choo is struggling defensively in center, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Billy up.

  17. #29
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    Frazier had a great year last year and I wouldn't hate it if he were batting 2nd, I just prefer the experienced player with lower K's to be at the plate late in the game.

  18. #30
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Choo's affect on our lineup..........

    I think you mean to ask about Choo's effect on our lineup.

    Sorry, grammar pet peeve.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013


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