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View Poll Results: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame when his career here is over?

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    69 87.34%
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Thread: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

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  1. #1
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    As things stand right now, Arroyo is #22 all time in terms of Cincinnati pitchers for career wins with 91, only 3 victories behind Jim O'Toole and 6 behind Jose Rijo. If history is any indication, he should easily pick up the 10 victories needed to move past Mario Soto on the team's career victories list. In addition, he's #12 all time currently among Reds pitchers in career strikeouts, and looks to move up that list during the 2013 season as well.

    I've always been a Bronson fan during his time with the Reds, but it seems like many here on Redszone have thought of Arroyo as an overpaid and unnecessary piece of the team since the trade that brought him here. There have been numerous threads over the years where I've rushed in to defend Bronson, as I like what he brings to the team with his bulldog attitude on the field, as well as the way he carries himself off the field with his honest and carefree attitude.

    So, the question is this: At the end of his tenure here, would you say that Bronson Arroyo deserves a place in the Reds Hall of Fame among the best to ever wear the wishbone "C", or is he not worthy to be considered among the all time greatest Reds pitchers, in spite of what his numbers say?
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  2. #2
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    I am guessing he will eventually make it into the Reds Hall of Fame, mostly because he will have pitched 8 years with the team and started a lot of games. He has been essentially a league average pitcher with the Reds (4.09 ERA, 106 ERA+). Including his 2013 salary the Reds will have paid him at least $65 million. That is a lot for an average pitcher. Does being an average player meet the standard for admission to the Reds Hall of Fame? If so, that is a pretty low bar.

  3. #3
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I am guessing he will eventually make it into the Reds Hall of Fame, mostly because he will have pitched 8 years with the team and started a lot of games. He has been essentially a league average pitcher with the Reds (4.09 ERA, 106 ERA+). Including his 2013 salary the Reds will have paid him at least $65 million. That is a lot for an average pitcher. Does being an average player meet the standard for admission to the Reds Hall of Fame? If so, that is a pretty low bar.
    When it comes to Cincy starting pitching, the bar is pretty much subterranean.

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  5. #4
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    When it comes to Cincy starting pitching, the bar is pretty much subterranean.
    This is an interesting point, if only because it makes me wonder whether the bar should HOF bar should be that much lower for an individual franchise.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  6. #5
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    When it comes to Cincy starting pitching, the bar is pretty much subterranean.
    True. 1990's and 2000's saw some terrible Reds pitching staffs. If you look at the team's entire history though there have been a lot of excellent pitchers. Arroyo may look good compared to the last 20 years, but he pales in comparison to many Reds pitchers of yesteryear.

  7. #6
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    This is an easy yes.
    One of the best pitchers this franchise has had in a long, long time.

    In terms of career value, he might be the best player the Reds have had since Larkin.. (although Phillips is a contender as well).

    Isn't Sean Casey in the Reds HOF? No offense to Casey, but if that's the bar, Bronson easily gets in.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  8. #7
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    I initially said no due to lack of playoff success, but he is comparable to Joey Jay, Red Lucas, and Jim O'Toole. So I suppose I would put him at yes if those guys are in.

  9. #8
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I am guessing he will eventually make it into the Reds Hall of Fame, mostly because he will have pitched 8 years with the team and started a lot of games. He has been essentially a league average pitcher with the Reds (4.09 ERA, 106 ERA+). Including his 2013 salary the Reds will have paid him at least $65 million. That is a lot for an average pitcher. Does being an average player meet the standard for admission to the Reds Hall of Fame? If so, that is a pretty low bar.
    Pitching 200 innings for 7 straight years with a slightly above average ERA does not equate to a league average pitcher, imo. I don't have the stats, but I imagine that puts Arroyo in the top 10% of all starters from that same period. I would argue that that type of production makes Arroyo an elite pitcher, all things considered.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  10. #9
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Pitching 200 innings for 7 straight years with a slightly above average ERA does not equate to a league average pitcher, imo. I don't have the stats, but I imagine that puts Arroyo in the top 10% of all starters from that same period. I would argue that that type of production makes Arroyo an elite pitcher, all things considered.
    Top 10% in what?

    Based upon WAR, he isn't even in the top 25% (ranked 58th out of 219 starting pitchers who have pitched at least 300 innings between 2006 and 2012).

    But keep in mind, he has needed a lot of innings to rack up his WAR of 13.7.

    If you limit the list to 1000+ innings, he's at the bottom among guys like John Garland, Joe Saunders, Kyle Lohse, Ervin Santana, Paul Maholm... or to look at it another way, ignore innings when populating the list of starters between 2006-2012 and just rank arms by WAR. Arroyo is nestled between John Smoltz and Mike Mussina. That's great company to be in but Arroyo needed 65% more innings to get there. Guys who never made single start during that time like Rivera and Papelbon have more WAR than Arroyo.

    He's a rubber arm. Jocketty has put great defenses behind Arroyo for most of Bronson's career as a Red. Arroyo may get into the Reds HOF because of longevity and cult of personality but it's Jocketty who deserves the credit for making the choice tolerable.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #10
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Top 10% in what?

    Based upon WAR, he isn't even in the top 25% (ranked 58th out of 219 starting pitchers who have pitched at least 300 innings between 2006 and 2012).

    But keep in mind, he has needed a lot of innings to rack up his WAR of 13.7.

    If you limit the list to 1000+ innings, he's at the bottom among guys like John Garland, Joe Saunders, Kyle Lohse, Ervin Santana, Paul Maholm... or to look at it another way, ignore innings when populating the list of starters between 2006-2012 and just rank arms by WAR. Arroyo is nestled between John Smoltz and Mike Mussina. That's great company to be in but Arroyo needed 65% more innings to get there. Guys who never made single start during that time like Rivera and Papelbon have more WAR than Arroyo.

    He's a rubber arm. Jocketty has put great defenses behind Arroyo for most of Bronson's career as a Red. Arroyo may get into the Reds HOF because of longevity and cult of personality but it's Jocketty who deserves the credit for making the choice tolerable.
    Arroyo is such an unique pitcher I enjoy the discussions that arise from his performance.

    Off the top of my head I consider him a pitcher who is right about league average. (Totally painting with a broad brush) Certainly above replacement level. So how valuable is 200+ IP of league average pitching basically penciled into your roster?

  12. #11
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Top 10% in what?

    Based upon WAR, he isn't even in the top 25% (ranked 58th out of 219 starting pitchers who have pitched at least 300 innings between 2006 and 2012).

    But keep in mind, he has needed a lot of innings to rack up his WAR of 13.7.

    If you limit the list to 1000+ innings, he's at the bottom among guys like John Garland, Joe Saunders, Kyle Lohse, Ervin Santana, Paul Maholm... or to look at it another way, ignore innings when populating the list of starters between 2006-2012 and just rank arms by WAR. Arroyo is nestled between John Smoltz and Mike Mussina. That's great company to be in but Arroyo needed 65% more innings to get there. Guys who never made single start during that time like Rivera and Papelbon have more WAR than Arroyo.

    He's a rubber arm. Jocketty has put great defenses behind Arroyo for most of Bronson's career as a Red. Arroyo may get into the Reds HOF because of longevity and cult of personality but it's Jocketty who deserves the credit for making the choice tolerable.
    All I'm saying is that there probably aren't that many pitchers, who have logged as many innings as Arroyo has over those years, and had a league average or better ERA.

    WOY showed that there have been six. That definitely puts Arroyo in the top ten percent, actually, closer to the top one percent of starting pitchers during that time period. To me, that says he's an elite pitcher. Having a league average or better ERA and pitching lots of innings are to two biggest criteria I have for starting pitchers.

    As for WAR, it's just not a valuable tool for evaluating pitchers. But even if you think it is, it clearly has a strong bias against pitchers like Arroyo who consistently outperform their peripherals. No matter how much you believe in DIPS, there has to be a point when a player outperforms his peripherals enough times where you have to say that his actual performance is a better judge of his talent than his peripherals. Arroyo is perfect example of this.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  13. #12
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    All I'm saying is that there probably aren't that many pitchers, who have logged as many innings as Arroyo has over those years, and had a league average or better ERA.

    WOY showed that there have been six. That definitely puts Arroyo in the top ten percent, actually, closer to the top one percent of starting pitchers during that time period. To me, that says he's an elite pitcher. Having a league average or better ERA and pitching lots of innings are to two biggest criteria I have for starting pitchers.

    As for WAR, it's just not a valuable tool for evaluating pitchers. But even if you think it is, it clearly has a strong bias against pitchers like Arroyo who consistently outperform their peripherals. No matter how much you believe in DIPS, there has to be a point when a player outperforms his peripherals enough times where you have to say that his actual performance is a better judge of his talent than his peripherals. Arroyo is perfect example of this.
    Arroyo really only outperforms his peripherals in front of Walt's defenses. This has been shown before.

    You're talking about elite. WAR is a great tool for this discussion because while he's logged a lot of innings, they haven't been especially stellar ones. Guys who could legitimately be in an argument about elite like Smoltz and Mussina, only require roughly a third of the innings to post the same WAR as Arroyo has as a Red.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #13
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    Absolutely. When it comes to team HOFs, the criteria should be a lot different than the national HOF. I'd love to see him in the Reds HOF.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

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  16. #14
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  17. #15
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Should Bronson Arroyo make the Reds Hall of Fame?

    NM
    Last edited by jojo; 02-17-2013 at 06:48 PM. Reason: redszone wigged out before post complete
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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