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Thread: Reds catching 2013 and after

  1. #196
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    So no one wants to go out on a limb and give us a straight answer on what Mes needs to do?

    I give you the following:

    After two months, Hannigan is playing to his career averages. Mes is OPSing 850 and is an average defender. What happens next?
    I gave a pretty straight up answer I think.

    If that happens, you should probably go closer to 50/50. If it holds up a little longer, then go to Mes outright.

    But I think Hanigan needs to be catching Chapman every start, and Arroyo is probably going to ask for Hanigan as well. Homer also appeared to be a lot better when pitching to Hanigan last year.

    That's going to be the tricky aspect. To make that switch, you're going to have to tell a pitcher that they don't get to pitch to the catcher they feel most comfortable with. Personally, I would have no qualms telling Bronson that Devin is his catcher from now on, because I don't think Arroyo needs a personal catcher, plus he can probably help Mes develop as a game caller a bit.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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  3. #197
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    So no one wants to go out on a limb and give us a straight answer on what Mes needs to do?

    I give you the following:

    After two months, Hannigan is playing to his career averages. Mes is OPSing 850 and is an average defender. What happens next?
    It depends largely on how the pitchers are pitching.

    If Hanigan's guys are dominating (at this point, three of Bailey, Latos, Cueto, and Chapman), why would you mess with a good thing? The offense is going to be good enough without Mesoraco's help.

    However, late in a game, I wouldn't be averse to Mesoraco pinch hitting and a double switch with either a reliever or Heisey in CF.

    (And I kind of resent the insinuation of "straight answer." You can't give a straight answer to any of these.)
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  4. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    It depends largely on how the pitchers are pitching.

    If Hanigan's guys are dominating (at this point, three of Bailey, Latos, Cueto, and Chapman), why would you mess with a good thing? The offense is going to be good enough without Mesoraco's help.

    However, late in a game, I wouldn't be averse to Mesoraco pinch hitting and a double switch with either a reliever or Heisey in CF.

    (And I kind of resent the insinuation of "straight answer." You can't give a straight answer to any of these.)
    Was Hanigan also not requested by Bronson to be his personal catcher? Or did I imagine that?
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  5. #199
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Mesoraco isn't as good as Hanigan yet.

    And it's not really close.

    Mesoraco was below replacement level last season. Hanigan was very good.
    And the snake eats it's tail.

    How can Mes prove he's ready for more when he doesn't get enough playing time?

    If Mes is getting 9 starts a month, and does well, what does it prove? The sample size is so small that there is no way to know what the Reds have?

    Mes had two months last season where he OPS'd over 775, and two months where he OPS'd close to 800 (one over, one slightly under) and two months where he was under 600. Neither bath of plate appearances was enough to figure out what his real level is.

    His entire 2012 season worth of PA's isn't enough to say anything other than "what's next".
    He had less than 200 PA's last year. That's less than two months worth for a regular player.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  7. #200
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    It depends largely on how the pitchers are pitching.

    If Hanigan's guys are dominating (at this point, three of Bailey, Latos, Cueto, and Chapman), why would you mess with a good thing? The offense is going to be good enough without Mesoraco's help.

    However, late in a game, I wouldn't be averse to Mesoraco pinch hitting and a double switch with either a reliever or Heisey in CF.

    (And I kind of resent the insinuation of "straight answer." You can't give a straight answer to any of these.)


    Ok, so its in the pitchers hands.

    If Mes isn't catching Cueto, for example, how is Cueto going to get comfortable with pitching to Mes?

    Sounds to me that Mes' biggest asset to the team will be as a trading chip.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  8. #201
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Won't sample size be an issue?

    9 games a month will make it a long time before we can figure out what we have in Mes.
    Sample size isn't nearly as important for professional baseball coaches, managers and the like as it is for posters on a baseball message board.

  9. #202
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    It depends largely on how the pitchers are pitching.

    If Hanigan's guys are dominating (at this point, three of Bailey, Latos, Cueto, and Chapman), why would you mess with a good thing? The offense is going to be good enough without Mesoraco's help.

    However, late in a game, I wouldn't be averse to Mesoraco pinch hitting and a double switch with either a reliever or Heisey in CF.

    (And I kind of resent the insinuation of "straight answer." You can't give a straight answer to any of these.)
    Do Bailey, Latos, Cueto, or Chapman dominate because they are significantly above-average pitching talents, or because they are typical pitchers who have the opportunity to pitch to Hanigan?

    Hanigan isn't doing the pitching, the pitchers are. If pitch framing is the issue, then coach Mesoraco to better frame pitches. If pitch calling is the issue, then call pitches from the dugout.

    Verlander put up an 8.3 fWAR season in 2009, while throwing the brunt of the time to Gerald Laird, who is horrible.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The base you want to acquire is home.

  10. #203
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    Do Bailey, Latos, Cueto, or Chapman dominate because they are significantly above-average pitching talents, or because they are typical pitchers who have the opportunity to pitch to Hanigan?

    Hanigan isn't doing the pitching, the pitchers are. If pitch framing is the issue, then coach Mesoraco to better frame pitches. If pitch calling is the issue, then call pitches from the dugout.

    Verlander put up an 8.3 fWAR season in 2009, while throwing the brunt of the time to Gerald Laird, who is horrible. Is Laird the answer to any sort of question in the same way that Hanigan is?
    Well, Homer at the very least improved last year in the stretch run once Mesoraco was demoted and he started pitching to Hanigan.

    And Chapman absolutely needs to be pitching to Hanigan while he's developing as a starter. He needs to be put in the very best position to succeed in that spot.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  11. #204
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    And the snake eats it's tail.

    How can Mes prove he's ready for more when he doesn't get enough playing time?
    Enough playing time is also apparently subjective.

    I disagree completely with your insistence of enough playing time and insist that Mesoraco got plenty of playing time last season, considering how badly he played in that time.

    I don't believe this is that difficult.

    Mesoraco stunk last season. Therefore, he needs to improve before he gets more playing time.

    As to the pitchers, yeah, it kind of is in their hands. If Cueto-- or Latos, or Bailey, or whomever Baker chooses to pair with Hanigan-- is dominating as a starter with Hanigan behind the plate, why switch his catcher? It makes no sense.

    If Hanigan gets injured (which is a distinct possibility), Mesoraco gets increased time. If Hanigan struggles offensively to the point where his bat becomes more of a detriment than his defense is an advantage, Mesoraco gets more playing time. If Mesoraco dominates offensively and proves that his defense was a blip, he gets more playing time.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  13. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Enough playing time is also apparently subjective.

    I disagree completely with your insistence of enough playing time and insist that Mesoraco got plenty of playing time last season, considering how badly he played in that time.

    I don't believe this is that difficult.

    Mesoraco stunk last season. Therefore, he needs to improve before he gets more playing time.

    As to the pitchers, yeah, it kind of is in their hands. If Cueto-- or Latos, or Bailey, or whomever Baker chooses to pair with Hanigan-- is dominating as a starter with Hanigan behind the plate, why switch his catcher? It makes no sense.

    If Hanigan gets injured (which is a distinct possibility), Mesoraco gets increased time. If Hanigan struggles offensively to the point where his bat becomes more of a detriment than his defense is an advantage, Mesoraco gets more playing time. If Mesoraco dominates offensively and proves that his defense was a blip, he gets more playing time.
    Exactly.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  14. #206
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Well, Homer at the very least improved last year in the stretch run once Mesoraco was demoted and he started pitching to Hanigan.
    Which he does every year in September, whether he's pitching to Hanigan or not. His August and September numbers are far and away his best of any months. In September/October, he's basically Felix Hernandez, and that isn't because in 2012 he started pitching to Hanigan instead of Mesoraco.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The base you want to acquire is home.

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    alwaysawarrior (03-02-2013)

  16. #207
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    Do Bailey, Latos, Cueto, or Chapman dominate because they are significantly above-average pitching talents, or because they are typical pitchers who have the opportunity to pitch to Hanigan?
    A combination of the two, IMO. Hanigan is superior defensively-- the best in the National League (or at least on equal footing with Y. Molina).

    That has monstrous value, IMO.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  17. #208
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Mesoraco isn't as good as Hanigan yet.

    And it's not really close.

    Mesoraco was below replacement level last season. Hanigan was very good.
    He had a .230 babip last year in 160 sparse at bats throughout the season. Say what you want about his below replacement level season, but it really wouldn't shock me at all if he was better than Hanigan right now.

  18. #209
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    He had a .230 babip last year in 160 sparse at bats throughout the season. Say what you want about his below replacement level season, but it really wouldn't shock me at all if he was better than Hanigan right now.
    Then he will have no problems proving it on the field in his (limited) ABs and thereby increase his playing time.

    Great!

    (BTW, I am likely Mesoraco's biggest doubter, but I hope you're right. His emergence would make the team much better.)
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  19. #210
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Then he will have no problems proving it on the field in his (limited) ABs and thereby increase his playing time.

    Great!
    He'll be well on his way to 50% of the team's catching ABs, but not those that happen when the pitchers who pitch only to Hanigan pitch.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The base you want to acquire is home.


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