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Thread: Reds catching 2013 and after

  1. #61
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    When you say "got his chance" you mean he started one game every three or four days without any favor to playing to his offensive strengths, was basically blamed for Mat Latos sucking in April despite that he has always sucked in April and blamed for Chapman falling apart mid-season despite him being fine before that with Mesoraco catching him, right?

    That wasn't a chance.

    Mesoraco vanished in September for a different reason. It wasn't because of Navarro.

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  3. #62
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Why is it so terrible? Ten years ago, I would probably agree with you because those teams weren't built to compete. This team is now built to not only compete, but to win a championship. They are going to put, what they feel, is the best product on the field, and most people in the organization feel that Hanigan is their best option at catcher. Hanigan has proven that he should be playing 60-70% of the time on this team, but that doesn't mean they should trade their backup catcher just because he might be able to play more somewhere else.
    Because you are basically wasting a very valuable asset. If all you are going to do with a highly regarded young catcher is have him around as Hanny's caddy, then he should have been dealt for something of use then just sign a backup catcher. Now that Mes has sit around on the bench for a year, his trade value is gone.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  4. #63
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Keeping him as a back up, absolutely a waste. If they want to go 50-50 on the playing time, I am more on board to keeping him. But if the plan is to once again use him 35-40% of the time, and fully limit him to two pitchers, just trade him. That plan is terrible.
    That plan helped the Reds win the pennant last season, doug.

    Mesoraco had a chance. He didn't produce in his chance. Therefore, he doesn't deserve more time. Hanigan produced in his limited time before he got more time. Why should Mesoraco simply be given ABs? It's not like his talent is unquestionable.

    This isn't the Lost Decade, where Cincinnati is basically hoping to find diamonds and willing to lose major league games. There were better options than Mesoraco last season-- Hanigan and Navarro. (BTW, had Mesoraco produced as the Reds needed, he'd have had 250 ABs; however, because he didn't produce, he was sent down.)

    I don't want my team to possibly lose the pennant or a wild card to possibly develop a prospect. That's not what major league teams are supposed to do.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  6. #64
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    LOL. I knew Doug would dominate this thread with the "Mez is the future", "Mez should be starting right now". Because Doug covers the Reds minor leagues, he has this obsession with their prospects.

    Then why was Mez basically benched the last month of the season if he is so great? Obviously the team doesn't think as highly of him, and I'll take their opinion over anyone on this board.

    Clearly Hanigan is the better game caller and has the confidence of the pitching staff, unlike Mez. That's a huge difference too. And it's not like Hanigan is a liability offensively. Sure, he isn't going to wow you with power, but he'll give you a good at-bat almost every time.

    I stick Mez in Louisville until he just earns it by wow-ing everyone or Hanigan goes down with an injury. Mez needs to play everyday, and since this is THE YEAR, we can't afford to have him start over Hanigan.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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  8. #65
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    LOL. I knew Doug would dominate this thread with the "Mez is the future", "Mez should be starting right now". Because Doug covers the Reds minor leagues, he has this obsession with their prospects.

    Then why was Mez basically benched the last month of the season if he is so great? Obviously the team doesn't think as highly of him, and I'll take their opinion over anyone on this board.

    Clearly Hanigan is the better game caller and has the confidence of the pitching staff, unlike Mez. That's a huge difference too. And it's not like Hanigan is a liability offensively. Sure, he isn't going to wow you with power, but he'll give you a good at-bat almost every time.

    I stick Mez in Louisville until he just earns it by wow-ing everyone or Hanigan goes down with an injury. Mez needs to play everyday, and since this is THE YEAR, we can't afford to have him start over Hanigan.
    I am hardly alone in my like for Mesoraco. I also don't have some "love" for the prospects because I cover them. I covered most of the team at one point or another. Even Ryan Hanigan. I am pro-Mesoraco because he has a chance to be something Hanigan can never dream of being.

    Mesoraco was benched for reasons that I can't talk about, but it wasn't because of his performance.

    My main question is, what does Mesoraco have to do in AAA to "wow" you, or anyone enough, to give him the starting job? .290/.380/.485 for a catcher in AAA apparently wasn't close to enough for the Reds. Not that I am saying he will be Joey Votto, but Mesoraco and Votto had nearly the exact same line at the exact same age in Louisville. Average/OBP/SLG were almost identical across the board. Mesoraco walked 10% to Votto's 12%. Mesoraco struck out 16.6% to Votto's 18.9%.

    So what is it going to take? What numbers does he have to put up in AAA? Does he have to go Jay Bruce and hit .360? What will it take?

  9. #66
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    When you say "got his chance" you mean he started one game every three or four days without any favor to playing to his offensive strengths, was basically blamed for Mat Latos sucking in April despite that he has always sucked in April and blamed for Chapman falling apart mid-season despite him being fine before that with Mesoraco catching him, right?

    That wasn't a chance.

    Mesoraco vanished in September for a different reason. It wasn't because of Navarro.
    You have to earn more playing time. It can't be given to you at the cost of the team. And make no mistake, doug-- he cost his team games. No one here blamed him for anything, though it is interesting that you ignore Homer Bailey, pre-Hanigan and post-Hanigan in your assessment of his season.

    He crapped the bed at the major league level. He'll be given another chance this year because he has a decent minor league pedigree. It's not the end of the world. It certainly didn't kill his chances to be a major league player. He's not been Petagine-ied.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  10. #67
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Homer Bailey has a career ERA under 3.00 in September for his career. Hanigan takes over Bailey right before then. Bailey pitches like he always does in September. Hanigan is great, Mesoraco sucks.

  11. #68
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    My main question is, what does Mesoraco have to do in AAA to "wow" you, or anyone enough, to give him the starting job? .290/.380/.485 for a catcher in AAA apparently wasn't close to enough for the Reds. Not that I am saying he will be Joey Votto, but Mesoraco and Votto had nearly the exact same line at the exact same age in Louisville. Average/OBP/SLG were almost identical across the board. Mesoraco walked 10% to Votto's 12%. Mesoraco struck out 16.6% to Votto's 18.9%.

    So what is it going to take? What numbers does he have to put up in AAA? Does he have to go Jay Bruce and hit .360? What will it take?
    Why should he be given anything, doug?

    He has to earn his time, just like everyone else.

    And, as you've so often told the rest of us, minor league numbers don't tell the whole story.

    Let him earn his time, just like everyone else in the game on good teams.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  13. #69
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    LOL. I knew Doug would dominate this thread with the "Mez is the future", "Mez should be starting right now". Because Doug covers the Reds minor leagues, he has this obsession with their prospects.

    Then why was Mez basically benched the last month of the season if he is so great? Obviously the team doesn't think as highly of him, and I'll take their opinion over anyone on this board.

    Clearly Hanigan is the better game caller and has the confidence of the pitching staff, unlike Mez. That's a huge difference too. And it's not like Hanigan is a liability offensively. Sure, he isn't going to wow you with power, but he'll give you a good at-bat almost every time.

    I stick Mez in Louisville until he just earns it by wow-ing everyone or Hanigan goes down with an injury. Mez needs to play everyday, and since this is THE YEAR, we can't afford to have him start over Hanigan.
    What does Mesoraco have to do in order to obtain playing time at the MLB level? His low numbers last year are almost entirely a result of a poor BABIP and sporadic/limited opportunities. He has a pedigree of being a top-10 prospect in MLB and being a first round draft pick. He dominated AA and AAA in subsequent years.

    What's left? Why are we so hesitant to give the player who can be the RHB to slot between Votto and Bruce (or right after the two of them) a real opportunity, given that he absolutely raked in 2010 and 2011? Is 225 MLB PAs across two years the new litmus for player quality?

    Mesoraco's 2011 AAA season slash line was .289/.371/.484. Imagine how good that same stat line would look in the middle of the lineup.

    Give the kid a real chance. Not a switching starts chance, but a real, live, play-in-good-situations-regularly chance. Let Hanigan call the game from the dugout if the concern is pitch selection. But having Mesoraco carry Hanigan's gear and only get to catch one guy is a pretty terrible situation. If that is the idea, then I agree with Raisor- trade Mesoraco rather than sticking him at AAA or on the bench while he still has some vague semblance of value.
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  14. #70
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Why should he be given anything, doug?

    He has to earn his time, just like everyone else.

    And, as you've so often told the rest of us, minor league numbers don't tell the whole story.

    Let him earn his time, just like everyone else in the game on good teams.
    No rookie has ever "earned it" when they took a job in April. Or May. Or June. You literally can't earn it until you are given a real chance to earn it.

  15. #71
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    He was GIVEN a real chance!

    250 major league ABs is about half a season of ABs. He was below replacement level in that time. That doesn't deserve more time-- it deserves skepticism.

    Maybe he's not what you think he is, doug.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  16. #72
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Here's what Mes' "chance" was like last yea:

    Apr/Mar 36 pa 822 ops
    May 37 pa 580 ops
    Jun 41 pa 586 ops
    July 37 pa 753 ops
    Aug 24 pa 390 ops
    Sept 3 pa 667 ops

    420 inning caught

    He had the equivelent of 40 games worth of plate appearances and
    46 defensive games.

    He averaged 9.6 starts a month.

    Like Doug has pointed out, he started back to back games, what was it, twice?

    How is that "getting his chance"?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  17. #73
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    506 AB's at AAA .279 .359 .472 .832

    total numbers in the minors: 1606 AB's .268 .343 .452 .795

    That includes his time at A ball where he had injuries to both thumbs.

    kid can hit.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  18. #74
    Member Strikes Out Looking's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    I vote for Corky for now and all time.
    Hacktastic: The Story of the 2014 Cincinnati Reds

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  20. #75
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    506 AB's at AAA .279 .359 .472 .832

    total numbers in the minors: 1606 AB's .268 .343 .452 .795

    That includes his time at A ball where he had injuries to both thumbs.

    kid can hit.
    Yep, too bad the position hinges on the other part of the game twice as much, and that is from what I can tell is what's holding him back.

    But shoot, not everyone can be JB and have it all down at 19


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