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Thread: Reds catching 2013 and after

  1. #121
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    But there hasn't been any demonstration that Mesoraco is part of the plan, aside from him having a locker in the Reds' locker room. He was played identically to how Paul Bako or any other backup catcher would be played.

    And wasn't it not a month or two ago where you were describing how Hanigan's lack of power would be a limiting factor on his role as a Red? Not to be accusatory or anything, but I don't think I understand your position on the current catching situation. Can you elaborate?
    My position is use both

    But don't coddle or expect AAA numbers to assure him of numerous starts. I think.he has a future with the team I think he has talent

    I think that he needs to show the staff that they can depend on him and have faith in him

    But trade him?

    Or compare him to Joey as a talent?

    Not yet on both points
    Last edited by westofyou; 03-01-2013 at 10:20 AM.

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  4. #122
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    But there hasn't been any demonstration that Mesoraco is part of the plan, aside from him having a locker in the Reds' locker room. He was played identically to how Paul Bako or any other backup catcher would be played.

    And wasn't it not a month or two ago where you were describing how Hanigan's lack of power would be a limiting factor on his role as a Red? Not to be accusatory or anything, but I don't think I understand your position on the current catching situation. Can you elaborate?
    Why do the Reds owe Mesoraco or the fans a "demonstration that Mesoraco is part of the plan"?

    Is the problem the Reds have not sufficiently declared their love and unending loyalty for this player?

    I don't get this at all. This player is a good prospect. But he is not Johnny Bench or even Buster Posey as a prospect. He is a good young prospect but his future is not the overwhelming priority of this franchise.

    This is the Cincinnati Reds, not the Cincinnati Mesoracos.

    It's too bad the kid didn't play that well last year. He didn't get the full shot, true. But he didn't show enough to cause the team to say -- whoa, we HAVE to get him into the lineup.

    I think he might achieve that "wow" with some more time at AAA.

    And put yourself in the Reds' position. The pitchers love throwing to Hanigan. Ryan has been a very strong defender and a good OBP man. You want to win now. Do you suddenly say, hey, Mes did well in the minors two years ago, he's now our guy? Few would.

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  6. #123
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    But there hasn't been any demonstration that Mesoraco is part of the plan, aside from him having a locker in the Reds' locker room. He was played identically to how Paul Bako or any other backup catcher would be played.
    Mesoraco was part of a 40-60 plan. He didn't hit, the Reds were in the playoff/ pennant hunt, so he had to be sent down.

    That hurt his AB total. This same AB total is apparenty what many posters on Redszone are up in arms about.

    There seems to be five distinct plans on Redszone:

    1) Give Mesoraco the majority of the ABs, with Hanigan as a backup in the hopes of him becoming a Brian McCann/ Matt Wieters.
    2) Share the position 50/50, with the hope that Mesoraco becomes more hte major league version his minor league numbers suggest he might be.
    3) Same 60/40 plan as last season, with Mesoraco earning more PT as he produces at the major league level.
    4) Move Mesoraco to AAA for less pressure ABs, with Olivo playing Hanigan's caddy.
    5) Move Mesoraco and every other prospect out of town because it's obvious the Reds don't value prospects or what they can bring.

    I'm in favor of number three, as is woy, and, I think, edabbs.
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  7. #124
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I'm in favor of number three, as is woy, and, I think, edabbs.
    I too endorse it, but I don't want Mesoraco catching two specific pitchers. Mix it up. Let Mesoraco start against the majority of the opposing left-handed pitchers since Hanigan plays because of his defense and because OBP contact hitters like Hanigan are less likely to be affected by platoon splits...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    If he hits better, and these pitchers feel comfortable pitching to him....then I would agree. Someone ask the pitchers than what their problem is with Devin and why they, Dusty and the FO seem hellbent on keeping this man down.
    Please show me where the pitchers have said they have a problem throwing to Devin? I seriously doubt that has been said, if it has I must have missed it. I am however going to guess that you may be right in saying certain pitchers are more comfortable with RH, as he had certain pitchers he apparently was not allowed to catch. You must agree with every decision Dusty makes then(just using your logic)? Just because he thinks its a good idea doesn't necessarily make it one....I would be amazed if the FO was really pleased with the way things went with Mes last year. I guess I just don't understand what he is "learning" from sitting on the bench that he couldn't learn by playing more. And I don't see the harm in letting him get some regular playing time.

  9. #126
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    60/40 may have been the plan, but it certainly wasn't even close to being executed. in April, he was in 25% of games played, and it pretty much stayed that way.

    I'm not saying he deserves 50% of the games played, but 60/40 is reasonable to start. but let's not pretend that was the plan last year, because it did not happen from the start.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  10. #127
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Why do the Reds owe Mesoraco or the fans a "demonstration that Mesoraco is part of the plan"?

    Is the problem the Reds have not sufficiently declared their love and unending loyalty for this player?

    I don't get this at all. This player is a good prospect. But he is not Johnny Bench or even Buster Posey as a prospect. He is a good young prospect but his future is not the overwhelming priority of this franchise.

    This is the Cincinnati Reds, not the Cincinnati Mesoracos.

    It's too bad the kid didn't play that well last year. He didn't get the full shot, true. But he didn't show enough to cause the team to say -- whoa, we HAVE to get him into the lineup.

    I think he might achieve that "wow" with some more time at AAA.

    And put yourself in the Reds' position. The pitchers love throwing to Hanigan. Ryan has been a very strong defender and a good OBP man. You want to win now. Do you suddenly say, hey, Mes did well in the minors two years ago, he's now our guy? Few would.
    I really don't know how I am coming across as overstating my opinion so strongly.

    Hanigan won't get 700 PAs this year. He will probably get 350-400. The question isn't how to utilize his 350-400 PAs, as he is currently a great option at C and should get those. The question is how to utilize the other 300-350 that the catching position will need to fill. I feel that using the guy who could be special and giving him a chance to really succeed is the best plan, and I don't think that the Reds have even approached that. Furthermore, I think that giving Mesoraco a chance to shine is the best approach for 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and maybe on, because it gives real information about the player and the positional situation going forward. Right now I don't think there is any real information beyond Hanigan, and he's entering his age 33 season. I guess there is information about Olivo or Miller as well, but neither of them is a great option as a 300-350 PA catcher on this team, imo.

    I'm not sure how this is coming across as me having a Mesoraco poster above my bed or a desire to rename the franchise- that certainly isn't remotely how I feel. You're right in saying that the franchise is bigger than Mesoraco, but, as I said before, there is very little information about one of the 8 positions on the field past a 65% of-the-time starter.
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  11. #128
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    I too endorse it, but I don't want Mesoraco catching two specific pitchers. Mix it up. Let Mesoraco start against the majority of the opposing left-handed pitchers since Hanigan plays because of his defense and because OBP contact hitters like Hanigan are less likely to be affected by platoon splits...
    I don't like the idea of mixing it up at all. Top rotation pitchers get what top rotation pitchers want. Period. When Mes earns (there's that word again) their trust, then he can catch them.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysawarrior View Post
    Please show me where the pitchers have said they have a problem throwing to Devin? I seriously doubt that has been said, if it has I must have missed it.
    You missed it:
    The preferred catcher for Bronson Arroyo for several years, Hanigan also became the main batterymate for ace Johnny Cueto and new arrival Mat Latos. The reviews were usually strong. Hanigan also became preferred by Aroldis Chapman, and sometimes if he wasn't starting, he entered games to work with the then-closer in the ninth inning.
    "Hanigan has been catching me since we were in Double-A together. There's just a long history," Bailey said. "It's kind of why we know what we're usually trying to do. Usually by the second pitch, I understand what he's trying to do to specific hitters. Typically if I shake, the next pitch he goes to is the one I was thinking. After the inning, he'd be like, 'I was 50-50 on what you shook to and what I called.' We're usually on the same page."
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysawarrior View Post
    I am however going to guess that you may be right in saying certain pitchers are more comfortable with RH, as he had certain pitchers he apparently was not allowed to catch. You must agree with every decision Dusty makes then(just using your logic)? Just because he thinks its a good idea doesn't necessarily make it one....
    This makes no sense to me.

    Perhaps you could re-explain it?

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysawarrior View Post
    I would be amazed if the FO was really pleased with the way things went with Mes last year. I guess I just don't understand what he is "learning" from sitting on the bench that he couldn't learn by playing more. And I don't see the harm in letting him get some regular playing time.
    Again, perhaps because I'm not being clear: Hanigan is the better player right now, so he's earning more playing time. That's really all there is to it. And I'm fairly certain Red management was tickled that the Cincinnati team won the NL Central pennant.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  15. #131
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    I don't like the idea of mixing it up at all. Top rotation pitchers get what top rotation pitchers want. Period. When Mes earns (there's that word again) their trust, then he can catch them.
    Let's assume that Cueto/Latos/Arroyo/Bailey/Chapman is the rotation. Last year, Mesoraco wasn't allowed to catch Cueto or Arroyo. Mesoraco got pulled from Latos after three or four poor starts (like Latos has EVERY APRIL FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER) and never caught him again. Mesoraco got pulled from Chapman when he finally started giving up earned runs in June and never caught him again.

    So now Mesoraco is going to be what? Regulated to catching Homer Bailey? That is going to give the other guys his trust? How?

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    60/40 may have been the plan, but it certainly wasn't even close to being executed. in April, he was in 25% of games played, and it pretty much stayed that way.

    I'm not saying he deserves 50% of the games played, but 60/40 is reasonable to start. but let's not pretend that was the plan last year, because it did not happen from the start.
    The plan was for Hanigan to catch Arroyo, Cueto, Latos, while Mesoraco was to catch Leake and Bailey.

    That'd be 60/40.

    Obviously, in April, Leake, as fifth starter, wasn't needed as much. Then, when Mesoraco struggled greatly, his ABs were turned over to Navarro.

    Were Mesoraco to have stuck around for all of Navarro's ABs, he'd have had 250 or so. Hanigan was at 370 or so.

    That's just over 40%, fwiw.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  17. #133
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    I could have lived with a 50/50 split of playing time.

    But couple the fact that he was maybe starting a third of the games along with his late season disappearance, and I'm not happy with the way he was handled.

    Fielding the best 25 man is not always the best answer. I think an argument could be made that come last July Billy Hamilton would have been a better choice for the roster than Valdez. But you want your top guys to bloom in the minors and then
    drop them into your lineup (or at least get a solid amount of playing time) when they are ready.

  18. #134
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    There will be a lot of new battery pairs this year. The success will mostly depend on the skill of the pitcher. Trust is important, but I think it is being overrated here.

  19. #135
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Obviously, Mesoraco wasn't ready last season.

    Perhaps he will be this season.

    He disappeared because he didn't hit and couldn't field. (Well, that and doug's nebulous assertion as to "other issues" none of us will ever know.)
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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