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Thread: Reds catching 2013 and after

  1. #136
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Obviously, Mesoraco wasn't ready last season.

    Perhaps he will be this season.

    He disappeared because he didn't hit and couldn't field. (Well, that and doug's nebulous assertion as to "other issues" none of us will ever know.)
    If that was the case why let him rot on the Cincinnati bench?

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  3. #137
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    If that was the case why let him rot on the Cincinnati bench?
    Hes only 24. There is still time. And noone has said let him rot on the bench

  4. #138
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by coachpipe View Post
    Hes only 24. There is still time. And noone has said let him rot on the bench
    I contend that he did.

  5. #139
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    60/40 may have been the plan, but it certainly wasn't even close to being executed. in April, he was in 25% of games played, and it pretty much stayed that way.

    I'm not saying he deserves 50% of the games played, but 60/40 is reasonable to start. but let's not pretend that was the plan last year, because it did not happen from the start.
    Mes started 9 times in April. The Reds played 22 times. 40.9%.

  6. #140
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    If that was the case why let him rot on the Cincinnati bench?
    You need two catchers, and Mesoraco seems a better option (IMO) than Olivo as a backup catcher. He might, too, find some of that minor league power and become what many here on Redszone think he is.

    I fail to understand how playing 40% of the time (if he hits well enough to hang onto the job) is in any way "rotting". Especially if the guy puts up a less than replacement level season.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  7. #141
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post

    He disappeared because he didn't hit and couldn't field. (Well, that and doug's nebulous assertion as to "other issues" none of us will ever know.)
    Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist. Mesoraco didn't disappear late in the year because of his play on the field.

  8. #142
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist. Mesoraco didn't disappear late in the year because of his play on the field.
    Here we go again

  9. #143
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    You need two catchers, and Mesoraco seems a better option (IMO) than Olivo as a backup catcher. He might, too, find some of that minor league power and become what many here on Redszone think he is.

    I fail to understand how playing 40% of the time (if he hits well enough to hang onto the job) is in any way "rotting". Especially if the guy puts up a less than replacement level season.
    Because you don't bring up top prospects and play them 40% of the time. They were top prospects (in baseball mind you, not just your organization where top prospect doesn't always mean the same thing) for a reason. Teams just don't bring guys up who were top 10-15 prospects in all of baseball and regulate them to back-up roles. I mean I guess Ryan Howard did that, but let's be fair, Ryan Hanigan is no Jim Thome (who was smacking 40+ home runs with the Phillies). Is there another guy like that in the last 15 years who was as highly touted as Mesoraco at the time he was called up and then just sat 60% of the time from the start?

  10. #144
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Mesoraco was part of a 40-60 plan. He didn't hit, the Reds were in the playoff/ pennant hunt, so he had to be sent down.

    That hurt his AB total. This same AB total is apparenty what many posters on Redszone are up in arms about.

    There seems to be five distinct plans on Redszone:

    1) Give Mesoraco the majority of the ABs, with Hanigan as a backup in the hopes of him becoming a Brian McCann/ Matt Wieters.
    2) Share the position 50/50, with the hope that Mesoraco becomes more hte major league version his minor league numbers suggest he might be.
    3) Same 60/40 plan as last season, with Mesoraco earning more PT as he produces at the major league level.
    4) Move Mesoraco to AAA for less pressure ABs, with Olivo playing Hanigan's caddy.
    5) Move Mesoraco and every other prospect out of town because it's obvious the Reds don't value prospects or what they can bring.

    I'm in favor of number three, as is woy, and, I think, edabbs.
    I'll take the blame for not making myslef clear.

    Here's what I think.

    I'm not for trading prospects because I think the Reds don't value them enough. I'm for using prospects in the best way they help the team. Sometimes that means playing them over "established" players. Sometimes that means stashing them for later, and sometimes that means trading them.

    In Mes' case, I don't think there is anything more he can do in AAA. If the Reds think that Hannigan is the answer at catcher the next season or two than fine. But that leaves what to do with Mes. I had the opinion last year that Mes would struggle in the back up role. He had been the best player on every team he ever played on going back to t-ball. Not everyone can handle being a back up. I couldn't when I played, so I quit. The reds are going to contend for the next few years, if Mes is going to be a back up, I'd assume trade him for need. If this is going to be the big chance for the title, and with Choo in for one year this would seem to be, I'd go all in.
    Same with Hamilton. As opposed to Mes, I think the Reds have done an excellent job developing, and hyping, Hamilton. That being said, I can easily see him becoming Corey Patterson or Willy Taveras. His biggest asset to the team may be in helping being someone else in.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  11. #145
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Reds relievers with at least 30 innings pitched on the season splits with each catcher

    Non-intentional walk rates: 9.1% and 9.2%
    Strikeout rates: 26.4% and 27.2%
    Number of pitchers with a better ERA for each guy? 4 and 3.
    ERA of each catcher when not accounting for Chapman (Hanigan had a large advantage in innings with Chapman, where as everyone else had a much closer split with each)? 3.22 and 3.03

    Care to guess at which catcher is which?

  12. #146
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    If that was the case why let him rot on the Cincinnati bench?
    He's rotting?

    Does he smell like cheese?

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  14. #147
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Because you don't bring up top prospects and play them 40% of the time. They were top prospects (in baseball mind you, not just your organization where top prospect doesn't always mean the same thing) for a reason. Teams just don't bring guys up who were top 10-15 prospects in all of baseball and regulate them to back-up roles. I mean I guess Ryan Howard did that, but let's be fair, Ryan Hanigan is no Jim Thome (who was smacking 40+ home runs with the Phillies). Is there another guy like that in the last 15 years who was as highly touted as Mesoraco at the time he was called up and then just sat 60% of the time from the start?
    I went top 25 to find enough actual bats to form a sample size. About half of the prospective hitters were used less than full-time as prospects once they first made a big league roster.

    By year:
    2007
    Cameron Maybin-- Two years of part-time play before becoming a full-time starter
    Brandon Wood-- Never became a full-time starter
    Andy LaRoche-- Never became a full-time starter
    Fernando Martinez-- Never became a full-time starter
    Reid Brignac-- Part-time player for a year, then full-time for a short time.

    2008
    Travis Snider-- Part-time player his entire career
    Matt LaPorta-- Part-time his first year, then struggles as a platoon-player
    Jordan Schaffer-- Part-timer

    2009
    Pedro Alvarez-- Part-timer for two years before becoming a full-timer last year
    Lars Andersen-- Part-timer

    2010
    Giancarlo Stanton-- Part-timer his first year, then full-timer and All-Star after that.
    Dom Brown-- Part-timer his entire career
    Logan Morrison-- Part-timer his first year
    Ryan Westmoreland-- Part-timer
    Brett Wallace-- Part-timer

    2011
    Lonne Chisenhall--Part-timer his first two years
    Dee Gordon-- Part-timer his first two years.

    Before that, it's even more apparent. Prospects almost always earn their playing time.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  15. #148
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Young catchers are an odd bunch, not many get in there every day, pretending that's so is essentially a falsehood.

    Last 3 years

    Code:
    GAMES                            G       AGE    
    1    Wilin Rosario               105       23   
    2    Salvador Perez               74       22   
    3    Derek Norris                 58       23   
    T4   Jesus Montero                56       22   
    T4   Hector Sanchez               56       22   
    6    Yasmani Grandal              55       23   
    7    Devin Mesoraco               53       24   
    T8   Ryan Lavarnway               28       24   
    T8   Rob Brantly                  28       22   
    10   Wilson Ramos                 24       24   
    11   Sandy Leon                   12       23   
    12   Yan Gomes                     9       24   
    13   Hank Conger                   7       24   
    14   Bryan Holaday                 6       24   
    15   Chris Herrmann                3       24   
    T16  Tim Federowicz                2       24   
    T16  Ali Solis                     2       24
    2011

    Code:
    SEASON
    2011
    C
    AGE < 25
    AGE displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    GAMES                            G       AGE    
    1    Alex Avila                  133       24   
    2    Wilson Ramos                108       23   
    3    Josh Thole                  102       24   
    4    Hank Conger                  56       23   
    5    Buster Posey                 41       24   
    6    Salvador Perez               39       21   
    7    Tony Cruz                    20       24   
    8    Devin Mesoraco               16       23   
    9    Wilin Rosario                14       22   
    10   Hector Sanchez               11       21   
    T11  Ryan Lavarnway                8       23   
    T11  Austin Romine                 8       22   
    13   Tim Federowicz                7       23   
    T14  Manuel Pina                   4       24   
    T14  Welington Castillo            4       24   
    T16  Martin Maldonado              3       24   
    T16  Jesus Montero                 3       21
    2010

    Code:
    SEASON
    2010
    C
    AGE < 25
    AGE displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    GAMES                            G       AGE    
    1    Matt Wieters                126       24   
    2    Alex Avila                   98       23   
    3    Francisco Cervelli           90       24   
    4    Lou Marson                   87       24   
    5    Buster Posey                 76       23   
    6    Jonathan Lucroy              75       24   
    7    Jason Castro                 67       23   
    8    Josh Thole                   61       23   
    9    Carlos Santana               40       24   
    10   Wilson Ramos                 22       22   
    11   Hank Conger                  10       22   
    T12  Bryan Anderson                8       23   
    T12  J.P. Arencibia                8       24   
    T14  Tyler Flowers                 7       24   
    T14  Josh Donaldson                7       24   
    16   Welington Castillo            5       23

  16. #149
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Because you don't bring up top prospects and play them 40% of the time. They were top prospects (in baseball mind you, not just your organization where top prospect doesn't always mean the same thing) for a reason. Teams just don't bring guys up who were top 10-15 prospects in all of baseball and regulate them to back-up roles. I mean I guess Ryan Howard did that, but let's be fair, Ryan Hanigan is no Jim Thome (who was smacking 40+ home runs with the Phillies). Is there another guy like that in the last 15 years who was as highly touted as Mesoraco at the time he was called up and then just sat 60% of the time from the start?
    Catchers on winning teams are a completely different animal. Those situations does not translate across to other ones as easily.

    But look at the 1997 NYY for a pretty good comparison. Though Posada didn't have the ranking that Mes does, he is/was still a pretty good catcher in his own right. And Girardi wasn't exactly crushing it in the Bronx.

  17. #150
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I went top 25 to find enough actual bats to form a sample size. About half of the prospective hitters were used less than full-time as prospects once they first made a big league roster.

    By year:
    2007
    Cameron Maybin-- Two years of part-time play before becoming a full-time starter
    Brandon Wood-- Never became a full-time starter
    Andy LaRoche-- Never became a full-time starter
    Fernando Martinez-- Never became a full-time starter
    Reid Brignac-- Part-time player for a year, then full-time for a short time.

    2008
    Travis Snider-- Part-time player his entire career
    Matt LaPorta-- Part-time his first year, then struggles as a platoon-player
    Jordan Schaffer-- Part-timer

    2009
    Pedro Alvarez-- Part-timer for two years before becoming a full-timer last year
    Lars Andersen-- Part-timer

    2010
    Giancarlo Stanton-- Part-timer his first year, then full-timer and All-Star after that.
    Dom Brown-- Part-timer his entire career
    Logan Morrison-- Part-timer his first year
    Ryan Westmoreland-- Part-timer
    Brett Wallace-- Part-timer

    2011
    Lonne Chisenhall--Part-timer his first two years
    Dee Gordon-- Part-timer his first two years.

    Before that, it's even more apparent. Prospects almost always earn their playing time.
    Mike Stanton wasn't a part time player. He came up in the 59th game of the season for the Marlins. He played 100 games that year. Cameron Maybin was called up August 17th and then September 17th the next year. That isn't a part time player, that is a 40-man roster call up.

    Some of those guys work, but some of them were never part time players. Sure, they played sparingly in September call ups, but that isn't the same thing at all.


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