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Thread: Reds catching 2013 and after

  1. #151
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    I really don't know how I am coming across as overstating my opinion so strongly.

    Hanigan won't get 700 PAs this year. He will probably get 350-400. The question isn't how to utilize his 350-400 PAs, as he is currently a great option at C and should get those. The question is how to utilize the other 300-350 that the catching position will need to fill. I feel that using the guy who could be special and giving him a chance to really succeed is the best plan, and I don't think that the Reds have even approached that. Furthermore, I think that giving Mesoraco a chance to shine is the best approach for 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and maybe on, because it gives real information about the player and the positional situation going forward. Right now I don't think there is any real information beyond Hanigan, and he's entering his age 33 season. I guess there is information about Olivo or Miller as well, but neither of them is a great option as a 300-350 PA catcher on this team, imo.

    I'm not sure how this is coming across as me having a Mesoraco poster above my bed or a desire to rename the franchise- that certainly isn't remotely how I feel. You're right in saying that the franchise is bigger than Mesoraco, but, as I said before, there is very little information about one of the 8 positions on the field past a 65% of-the-time starter.
    Thanks for the good post. I guess this brings us back to the question that led me to begin this interesting thread.

    What's best for the Reds, but what's best for Devin?

    I submit that Mesoraco playing twice a week is a bad idea. I'd rather see him in AAA getting his mojo back, if it works. Then, when he comes back, after hopefully dominating AAA, he's your main catcher.

    I want to get Devin back on track. I don't see it happening as a twice a week catcher.

    Your suggestion seems to be let him play three times a week. Maybe. Question whether that will jump start him. And question whether Hanigan should be sitting that much.

    I don't know the young man. Some of it depends on his personality. How will he take another few months at AAA? How will he take playing twice a week with the Reds? Three times a week?

    That's really what we're talking about here.

    Don't want to see him as a pure backup for the Reds this year. Looking toward winning, I'd like Hanigan to play most games.

    Seems to me a great period at AAA would do him the most good, but the Reds know him best and presumably will make the best call on this.

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  3. #152
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Mike Stanton wasn't a part time player. He came up in the 59th game of the season for the Marlins. He played 100 games that year. Cameron Maybin was called up August 17th and then September 17th the next year. That isn't a part time player, that is a 40-man roster call up.

    Some of those guys work, but some of them were never part time players. Sure, they played sparingly in September call ups, but that isn't the same thing at all.
    Fair enough on both Maybin and Stanton. That still leaves more than half of the Top 25 prospective hitters in baseball as part-time players at the major league level at least their first season.

    Fact is, most prospective hitters of Mesoraco's ilk do start in part-time roles or less.
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  4. #153
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Fair enough on both Maybin and Stanton. That still leaves more than half of the Top 25 prospective hitters in baseball as part-time players at the major league level at least their first season.

    Fact is, most prospective hitters of Mesoraco's ilk do start in part-time roles or less.
    I didn't even look at most of those guys. I looked at Maybin, Stanton and LaRoche.

    But let's just assume that your numbers are right, and half of them got partial playing time. Did they get the benefit of facing pitchers who pitched to their strengths (lefty/right match ups, they crush fastballs but struggle with sliders so they didn't get into games versus guys with good sliders?)? Mesoraco didn't get that benefit.

  5. #154
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I didn't even look at most of those guys. I looked at Maybin, Stanton and LaRoche.

    But let's just assume that your numbers are right, and half of them got partial playing time. Did they get the benefit of facing pitchers who pitched to their strengths (lefty/right match ups, they crush fastballs but struggle with sliders so they didn't get into games versus guys with good sliders?)? Mesoraco didn't get that benefit.
    You want Baker to tell the other team to throw it underhand to him too?

    Does his run "count"?
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  6. #155
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    You want Baker to tell the other team to throw it underhand to him too?

    Does his run "count"?
    I would love him to tell the other team to do that.

    But the point is, and I know that you know exactly what it is, that Devin Mesoraco isn't in a platoon like anyone else has been in a platoon.

  7. #156
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    You want Baker to tell the other team to throw it underhand to him too?
    Do you think they would? I'd kind of like for him to tell them that if you think they would.

  8. #157
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Reds relievers with at least 30 innings pitched on the season splits with each catcher

    Non-intentional walk rates: 9.1% and 9.2%
    Strikeout rates: 26.4% and 27.2%
    Number of pitchers with a better ERA for each guy? 4 and 3.
    ERA of each catcher when not accounting for Chapman (Hanigan had a large advantage in innings with Chapman, where as everyone else had a much closer split with each)? 3.22 and 3.03

    Care to guess at which catcher is which?
    If we remove Chapman from the equation entirely:

    Non-intentional walk rates: 9.2% and 9.4%
    Strikeout rates: 24% and 22%
    Number of pitchers with a better ERA for each guy? 4 and 2.
    Last edited by dougdirt; 03-01-2013 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Oops

  9. #158
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    I really don't know how I am coming across as overstating my opinion so strongly.

    Hanigan won't get 700 PAs this year. He will probably get 350-400. The question isn't how to utilize his 350-400 PAs, as he is currently a great option at C and should get those. The question is how to utilize the other 300-350 that the catching position will need to fill. I feel that using the guy who could be special and giving him a chance to really succeed is the best plan, and I don't think that the Reds have even approached that. Furthermore, I think that giving Mesoraco a chance to shine is the best approach for 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and maybe on, because it gives real information about the player and the positional situation going forward. Right now I don't think there is any real information beyond Hanigan, and he's entering his age 33 season. I guess there is information about Olivo or Miller as well, but neither of them is a great option as a 300-350 PA catcher on this team, imo.

    I'm not sure how this is coming across as me having a Mesoraco poster above my bed or a desire to rename the franchise- that certainly isn't remotely how I feel. You're right in saying that the franchise is bigger than Mesoraco, but, as I said before, there is very little information about one of the 8 positions on the field past a 65% of-the-time starter.
    So how do you give him a chance to shine and still give Hanigan 350 to 400 PAs? If I understand it, many think that last year was not a chance to shine, but if Hanigan gets 400 PAs a repeat of last year is what you are proposing.

    I repeat that I think people are overlooking the importance of a guy catching 40% of the team's innings and getting 250 PAs. That's a more important role than the 4th OF or the utility IF or whatever role you envision for Jack Hannahan and if we proposed sending Heisey down in favor of a journeyman who doesn't get on base and can't play defense, the board would melt down. Mesoraco, even catching just 2 of 5 games, is a pretty important part of this team right now and it gives him plenty of opportunity to play and sieze more playing time.
    Last edited by mth123; 03-01-2013 at 07:54 PM.
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  11. #159
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    So how do you give him a chance to shine and still give Hanigan 350 to 400 PAs? If I understand it, many think that last year was not a chance to shine, but if Hanigan gets 400 PAs a repeat of last year is what you are proposing.

    I repeat that I think people are overlooking the importance of a guy catching 40% of the team's innings and getting 250 PAs. That's a more important role than the 4th OF or the utility IF or whatever role you envision for Jack Hannahan and if we proposed sending Heisey down in favor of a journeyman who doesn't get on base and can't play defense, the board would melt down. Mesoraco, even catching just 2 of 5 games, is a pretty important part of this team right now and it gives him plenty of opportunity to play and sieze more playing time.
    A start could be by playing Mesoraco and Hanigan as a true platoon where they are matched up against pitchers who play to their strengths instead of a "you face who 'your guy' is facing" timeshare. Gather information about the players and the positional future in a "real" manner instead of what has been done so far.
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  12. #160
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    A start could be by playing Mesoraco and Hanigan as a true platoon where they are matched up against pitchers who play to their strengths instead of a "you face who 'your guy' is facing" timeshare. Gather information about the players and the positional future in a "real" manner instead of what has been done so far.
    It may be a true platoon, but I've never seen it in major league baseball.

    In fact, the term platoon in baseball means lefty faces righty; righty faces lefty. I've heard people on here call Stubbs/Heisey a platoon, but I've never understood that to be a platoon in the traditional sense.

    Frankly, I think most managers would object strenuously to the system you suggest. It provides no continuity or predictability for the two catchers involved, the starting pitchers, nobody. Every day some genius decides who is more likely to hit the particular opposing pitcher. A hodge podge I don't see it.

    And I don't see how it helps Mesoraco to play on a grab bag basis. That's why most of these solutions at the major league level don't work. Mes needs consistent playing time.

    If he must stay in the big leagues, it's almost inevitable that Mes and Hanigan will each become personal catchers to particular pitchers. The starting pitchers will want to use a catcher consistently.

    Or perhaps the starting pitchers are now less important than Mes' development, LOL

    If he stays in the bigs, Reds will have to work out a schedule with the pitchers and catchers that will give Mes, say, 40% of the at bats, most likely depending on the Reds' starting pitcher. Where possible it can't be a clearcut rule, they should try to have the pitchers be as flexible as possible.

    My preference would be to begin Mes at AAA, give him daily at bats and work on his defense, see how he does for a few months, then if he does well plan on making him the starter in Cincy as soon as possible.
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-02-2013 at 12:26 PM.

  13. #161
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post

    My preference would be to begin Mes at AAA, give him daily at bats and work on his defense, see how he does for a few months, then if he does well plan on making him the starter in Cincy as soon as possible.
    This plan sounds just like what they did in 2011. Then they brought him up and played him 40% of the time from the start. Why would they do it differently this time around?

  14. #162
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    It may be a true platoon, but I've never seen it in major league baseball.

    In fact, the term platoon in baseball means lefty faces righty; righty faces lefty. I've heard people on here call Stubbs/Heisey a platoon, but I've never understood that to be a platoon in the traditional sense.

    Frankly, I think most managers would object strenuously to the system you suggest. It provides no continuity or predictability for the two catchers involved, the starting pitchers, nobody. Every day some genius decides who is more likely to hit the particular opposing pitcher. A hodge podge I don't see it.

    And I don't see how it helps Mesoraco to play on a grab bag basis. That's why most of these solutions at the major league level don't work. Mes needs consistent playing time.

    If he must stay in the big leagues, it's almost inevitable that Mes and Hanigan will each become personal catchers to particular pitchers. The starting pitchers will want to use a catcher consistently.

    Or perhaps the starting pitchers are now less important than Mes' development.

    If he stays in the bigs, Reds will have to work out a schedule with the pitchers and catchers that will give Mes, say, 40% of the at bats, most likely depending on the starting pitcher. Where possible it can't be a clearcut rule, they should try to have the pitchers be as flexible as possible.

    My preference would be to begin Mes at AAA, give him daily at bats and work on his defense, see how he does for a few months, then if he does well plan on making him the starter in Cincy as soon as possible.
    The concern that I think can't be ignored in assigning specific pitchers to specific catchers is that if Mesoraco gets blown up in a play at the plate or gets hit on the hand by a pitch or gets rug burn on his head while wrestling with his dog (shoutout to Gio Gonzalez) and is placed on the DL, then the problem of unfamiliarity gets exacerbated. By allowing both catchers to catch the same pitchers- maybe each catcher has a single pitcher exclusively, I don't know- then you are allowing for a greater degree of roster flexibility.

    I understand your preference, but I just don't see a way that it works in this situation. Hanigan is a known, valuable commodity. Mesoraco destroyed AA and AAA before being promoted to his much-debated role in 2012. I don't feel that Mesoraco has much left to prove at all, beyond the defensive part that I don't know a ton about and is tricky to measure given Mesoraco's limited time and role at the MLB level. I also don't see a successful situation where Mesoraco is moved from AAA guy (let's say, for the sake of argument, that he puts up identical numbers to 2011) to lion's share while maintaining that pitchers get to throw to specific catchers and Hanigan keeps his role of catching Latos, Cueto, Arroyo, probably Chapman, maybe Bailey (given how 2012 ended re: Hanigan and Chapman/Bailey) and maybe others.

    It's a very tricky situation right now. I would put Mesoraco on the MLB club and have him start to get to know the current and future Reds pitchers while getting a chance to hit against pitchers who he matches up well against.
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  15. #163
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Hanigan is a FA after this year, right?

  16. #164
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Hanigan is a FA after this year, right?
    He is arbitration year 3 eligible next year. This is the last year that he is under the contract that he signed 2 years ago (3y,4m)
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The base you want to acquire is home.

  17. #165
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    If the plan is for Hanigan to get the most games, send Mez to Louisville so he can get some hitting at-bats and catch everyday. It's as simple as that.
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