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Thread: Reds catching 2013 and after

  1. #256
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    They liked his smile
    So does my wife.

    If she had to choose between Javy and me, I'd come in third.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    pahster (03-28-2013)

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  4. #257
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I don't care who Mes catches. But the Reds have to be flexible enough to make sure he doesn't sit on the bench for long stretches.

    This kid has to play. If he's in the bigs, then he plays in the bigs. As much as possible.
    How much?

    Catching is traditionally a spot where nobody gets 600 plate appearances. Last year the red's catcher slot got 630 plate appearances.
    Is it stunting Devin Mesoraco's growth if Ryan Hannigan gets ....Oh.....315 of those? Would that be reasonable? That the performing established veteran who you have signed to a multi-year contract gets half the playing time? We are not talking about Corky Miller here, Hannigan is a productive major league player right now.

    Hanigan got 370 plate appearances as a catcher last year. I don't think that's unreasonable.

    Now Mesoraco lost a ton of at bats because of some combination of
    • He blew up at an umpire.
    • The organization decided to protect a potential future asset from concussion damage.
    • The reds decided they wanted to hold tryouts in August and see if Navarro could help them more in the playoffs than Mesoraco.
    and the organization decided to bury him for the rest of the year.

    And you know what....Good for Walt. I'm glad my reds aren't setting aside developmental at bats for anybody. You hit like Paul Janish, you are in danger of losing your job.

    I wouldn't mind at all seeing Mesoraco perform so well that he earns the lion share of the playing time....but the notion that the reds need to let him play.....well, I used to root for a team that did stuff like that. Those days are gone and I'm thankful.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

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    mth123 (03-23-2013)

  6. #258
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    If a pitcher doesn't care who he pitches to, fine. That means he can pitch to both. Or either.

    But if the pitcher wants Hanigan, why put the added pressure on the guy?
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  7. #259
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    If a pitcher doesn't care who he pitches to, fine. That means he can pitch to both. Or either.

    But if the pitcher wants Hanigan, why put the added pressure on the guy?
    Why are we letting players decide the roles of other players? Heck, I still can't believe we have let players decide their own roles on the team.

    And do you really think there is some extra pressure on the pitcher over who the guy squatting behind the plate is? See sign, wind up, find mitt, throw baseball to it.

  8. #260
    Member RadfordVA's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, it shouldn't. When pitchers trade teams they don't take their catchers with them. Yet they perform just as expected in most scenarios.

    .
    Do they? Anyone know if there is an actual study done on this? It seems to me usually when the team goes out and gets a starter mid season they under perform. Dempster and Grienke a couple last season whose ERA and FIP went up. Of course it wouldn't be conclusive either way since many factors in play but seems stats should get better if catcher and comfort level didn't play a part since they should be going to a better team most of the time. Would be an interesting study nonetheless.

  9. #261
    always ask questions bigredmechanism's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Ok then. Put up or shut up time.

    If Mes and Hanigan each caught the Reds staff for one full season. How much better would the staffs ERA be with Hanigan?
    I think the ERA's would be generally the same. Going by last year offensively, Hanigan might have netted us an extra win or so, but the pitchers are still the pitchers.
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  10. #262
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredmechanism View Post
    I think the ERA's would be generally the same. Going by last year offensively, Hanigan might have netted us an extra win or so, but the pitchers are still the pitchers.
    That's about where I am. Listening to some remarks I can't help but think some believe Hanigan knocks half a run off a pitchers ERA. No ones fessed up yet so maybe I interpreted wrong.

  11. #263
    always ask questions bigredmechanism's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    That's about where I am. Listening to some remarks I can't help but think some believe Hanigan knocks half a run off a pitchers ERA. No ones fessed up yet so maybe I interpreted wrong.
    I think the stats speak for themselves, but iirc Hanigan caught Cueto for (almost?) every start last year while Mes caught Leake. Switch who is behind the plate for those games instead and the stats would easily be reversed.

    Hanigan is a very good catcher, and I am comfortable with him doing his job, but Mes will be fine. There are only a few catchers in the bigs who I would rather have Mes under their tutelage. The fact that Hani does it without the physical tools/athleticism that Mes has puts me in a good place as to Devin's future.
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  12. #264
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    That's about where I am. Listening to some remarks I can't help but think some believe Hanigan knocks half a run off a pitchers ERA. No ones fessed up yet so maybe I interpreted wrong.
    All I've read are that posters question Mesoraco's defense, while appreciating Hanigan's.

    Hanigan is a Gold Glove type catcher. (He probably should have won it last season, though Yadi Molina was a fine choice as well.) True, he's not an offensive powerhouse and is more likely to put up negative wRC+ than any other position on the Cincinnati field. However, that has nothing to do with this discussion.

    Mesoraco, up to this point, would make a far better 1B than a catcher. Now, perhaps he improves. (He wouldn't be the first to do so.) But, judging from last season's numbers, and the limited number of times I saw him in both in the minor and major leagues, he has a long, long way to go to be anywhere near Hanigan's level.

    Many pitchers like having one catcher to throw to. It's been that way for a century.

    doug and others like him (I assume you are in his camp) believe that's silly. Throw the ball, meat. Don't think-- it only hurts the club. See the sign, throw the ball.

    Others, like me, believe differently. We see the merits of making a pitcher as comfortable as possible when he starts.

    Your question is unquantifiable, though, and would bring about semantic arguments that are also unquantifiable. Therefore, it was ignored. The backhanded comment was noted, however.
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    RadfordVA (03-23-2013)

  14. #265
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post

    doug and others like him (I assume you are in his camp) believe that's silly. Throw the ball, meat. Don't think-- it only hurts the club. See the sign, throw the ball.
    I don't believe it is silly. I believe they probably do have a guy they like to throw to. I also don't believe for a second that it alters their ability to get outs on any given day assuming the guy behind the plate is actually a Major League quality catcher and not Neftali Soto behind the plate.

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    bigredmechanism (03-23-2013)

  16. #266
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    All I've read are that posters question Mesoraco's defense, while appreciating Hanigan's.

    Hanigan is a Gold Glove type catcher. (He probably should have won it last season, though Yadi Molina was a fine choice as well.) True, he's not an offensive powerhouse and is more likely to put up negative wRC+ than any other position on the Cincinnati field. However, that has nothing to do with this discussion.

    Mesoraco, up to this point, would make a far better 1B than a catcher. Now, perhaps he improves. (He wouldn't be the first to do so.) But, judging from last season's numbers, and the limited number of times I saw him in both in the minor and major leagues, he has a long, long way to go to be anywhere near Hanigan's level.

    Many pitchers like having one catcher to throw to. It's been that way for a century.

    doug and others like him (I assume you are in his camp) believe that's silly. Throw the ball, meat. Don't think-- it only hurts the club. See the sign, throw the ball.

    Others, like me, believe differently. We see the merits of making a pitcher as comfortable as possible when he starts.

    Your question is unquantifiable, though, and would bring about semantic arguments that are also unquantifiable. Therefore, it was ignored. The backhanded comment was noted, however.
    My permanent record is bursting at the seams thank you very much.

    In all seriousness, what does "making the pitcher as comfortable as possible mean?" I have no idea, are you one who would have slotted Chapman in as closer because he stated that was his preference, hence he would be more comfortable?

    I base wanting Mes to get more playing time on the fact that I believe over a long stretch of time his bat will be much more productive than Hanigan. I think Hanigan is a great catcher, and is great to show Mes the ropes. But is it too much to ask for you to somehow quantify the effects of this "making the pitcher comfortable" stance? I assume you believe it will lead to less runs allowed, and that's ok. But to what extent?

  17. #267
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    In all seriousness, what does "making the pitcher as comfortable as possible mean?"
    It means you try to give the pitcher less to worry about, so that he might be more successful. What aren't you getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I have no idea, are you one who would have slotted Chapman in as closer because he stated that was his preference, hence he would be more comfortable?
    No, I don't think I would have slotted him immediately as closer, though I would have taken that into consideration in my plans for the team. Comfort is a big thing in the workplace.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I base wanting Mes to get more playing time on the fact that I believe over a long stretch of time his bat will be much more productive than Hanigan.
    I think many posters on Redszone believe Mesoraco will be the better player this year. I don't. I believe Mesoraco might improve as a hitter, but this team, IMO, needs Hanigan's glove more than the possibility of Mesoraco's bat. And it's not like he's completely useless at the plate. He has a nice obp every year.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I think Hanigan is a great catcher, and is great to show Mes the ropes. But is it too much to ask for you to somehow quantify the effects of this "making the pitcher comfortable" stance? I assume you believe it will lead to less runs allowed, and that's ok. But to what extent?
    Look at last year. Look at the year before. Look at his career numbers-- an average of around 2.3 WAR per part-time season over the last four years. Look at the differences between Hanigan and other Red catchers-- 2.4 last season. Look at Ramon Hernandez from 2011. That 112 wRC+ and monster offensive season helped him... break even with Hanigan in WAR. Even if Mesoraco hits the way most of you believe he will, Hanigan's value is virtually the same per AB/game played.

    None of that includes the comfort of the pitchers.

    Or, to put it another way:

    If 2013 Mesoraco = 2011 Hernandez, then 2013 Mesoraco = likely 2013 Hanigan WAR contribution - unsubstantiated "comfortable" pitcher numbers).
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  18. #268
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Scrap, what I don't understand is your (seemingly) relunctence to trade Mes.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  19. #269
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    If you think Hanigan will be the "better/more productive" of the two, that's fine. I disagree. I don't necessarily agree with the logic but I will play along and say I think Mes can exceed Ramon's 2011 production offensively.

    Pitcher comfort is secondary. And if that is the case with you, that's fine. Who wouldn't want their pitcher to be comfortable. But what "I'm not getting" is where do you draw the line? At what point do you give a catcher more playing time just due to pitcher comfort. I'm not looking for numbers necessarily, just a common sense answer/reasoned explanation. Not trying to cause trouble nor am I stupid as some as your remarks seem to be implying, but would just like some clarity on the extent to which you allow pitchers to choose their battery mate.

  20. #270
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Reds have to decide on Miguel Olivo today apparently. Either agree to put him on the 25 man roster; or release him; or pay him $100,000 to keep him in the minors. This is apparently a new CBA thing affecting certain players, according to MLB Trade Rumors, as I read it.

    So today should give us some clue, at least on the catching situation.


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