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Thread: Reds catching 2013 and after

  1. #46
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    we're starting to get into Mes vs Hamilton where we were just talking about Mes vs Hanigan. Maybe the conversation should be Mes vs Olivo - thats what WJ must decide in 4 weeks. Whats everyones take?
    Pete Rose will be leaving the Montreal Expos to become player - manager for the Cincinnati Reds

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  3. #47
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Let him play a couple days in a row. It's brutal to think a guy can establish himself when he plays twice a week 4 days apart (does the math work? idk.......it doesn't matter ....point is),the kid never got to settle in and get any kind of routine going.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou1990 View Post
    we're starting to get into Mes vs Hamilton where we were just talking about Mes vs Hanigan. Maybe the conversation should be Mes vs Olivo - thats what WJ must decide in 4 weeks. Whats everyones take?
    My take? Olivo is terrible. He is alergic to first base, swings as hard as he can at everything thrown to the plate and is a poor defender who has a strong arm.

  6. #49
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou1990 View Post
    we're starting to get into Mes vs Hamilton where we were just talking about Mes vs Hanigan. Maybe the conversation should be Mes vs Olivo - thats what WJ must decide in 4 weeks. Whats everyones take?
    I actually think the prior conversation (Mes vs Hanigan) needs to happen first. Until you know how much the backup catcher is going to play, I don't see how you make that decision. If we're seriously talking 100-150 ABs, just make it Olivo and let Mes get PT in Louisville, or better yet, trade him. If they are serious about a time share, there is no doubt in my mind Mes is a better option than Olivo.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The Reds have had a consistent plan for Mes. When he finished his good AAA season, they brought him to the bigs and gave him an apprenticeship playing less than the incumbent.

    The plan was - and maybe still is - to increase that playing time.

    Problem is he hit .212 with a .640 OPS, and some think he didn't defend that well. He was sent down to the minors, hit 3 for 19 PAs down there, and then didn't make the Reds playoff roster.

    Meantime, Hanigan is established as a first rate defender who gets on base. And the team is contending and probably wants Hanigan to continue to play very often.

    If it were me, I would do the opposite of sticking to the plan. I'd revise the plan to allow Mes to get his bat going at AAA and get some more reps behind the plate. Let's see how it goes, how Hanigan does, how Olivo does, if everyone is healthy.

    You can support Mes and still think he'd be better off catching most every day at AAA.
    I seriously doubt the Reds plan going into last year was to get Mes 170 at bats and send him to the minors. If that was the plan it did in fact suck. I happen to like Hanigan behind the plate, but I'd like to see what Mes can do with a real chance. I'm just amazed by people who see less than 200 at bats and thinks he was given ample time....

  8. #51
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Mes wasn't very good last year. But Olivo has never been very good. Actually, he's always been absolutely dreadful. I could live with Navarro. Had some pop, got on base. I didn't care for his defense, but could live with his bat. I can't live with any aspect of Olivo's game.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysawarrior View Post
    I seriously doubt the Reds plan going into last year was to get Mes 170 at bats and send him to the minors. If that was the plan it did in fact suck. I happen to like Hanigan behind the plate, but I'd like to see what Mes can do with a real chance. I'm just amazed by people who see less than 200 at bats and thinks he was given ample time....
    Nobody said that was the plan.

    The Reds plan last year was for Mes to have the lesser share of the catcher position, as an apprenticeship of sorts. Obviously, they didn't plan to have him go to the minors. That happened after he had difficulties, was suspended, etc.

    As for Olivo, he's good enough to be a pure backup catcher. If Mes goes down to AAA, that's what Olivo would be. He'll play once or twice a week depending on the schedule.

    As for those who say give Mes X at bats or trade him, why? Just because he's perhaps not ready yet and needs more seasoning is no reason to trade him.
    Last edited by Kc61; 02-28-2013 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post

    As for those who say give Mes X at bats or trade him, why?
    Because at what point do you actually let him play? If you are saying Hanigan is your guy at this point, you are going to say that in the future too because Mesoraco did everything he could in AAA in 2011 and got 165 at bats in 2012. I really don't believe that anything he did was going to change his playing time. Hanigan was going to catch his guys and Mesoraco, his. Maybe I am wrong on that, but it is the vibe I got from it all.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Because at what point do you actually let him play? If you are saying Hanigan is your guy at this point, you are going to say that in the future too because Mesoraco did everything he could in AAA in 2011 and got 165 at bats in 2012. I really don't believe that anything he did was going to change his playing time. Hanigan was going to catch his guys and Mesoraco, his. Maybe I am wrong on that, but it is the vibe I got from it all.
    Doug, do you also feel then just keeping Mes as a backup is a wasted opportunity? If he isn't going to get playing time, then he should have been traded for an asset that would be used more?
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Because at what point do you actually let him play? If you are saying Hanigan is your guy at this point, you are going to say that in the future too because Mesoraco did everything he could in AAA in 2011 and got 165 at bats in 2012. I really don't believe that anything he did was going to change his playing time. Hanigan was going to catch his guys and Mesoraco, his. Maybe I am wrong on that, but it is the vibe I got from it all.
    Here's what that argument sounds like -- Either Mes plays right now or THAT'S IT, Hanigan will start forever, Mes will never get a chance, trade him, it's over. Gee whiz, Mesoraco is 24, there is plenty of time for him to advance.

    Mes did not necessarily complete his learning process by hitting .855 OPS one year at AAA. Some players need more, especially those playing challenging positions.

    And Mes has a particular issue. He struggled at the plate last year. He may need more seasoning - or perhaps just a confidence boost of say two to three months of regular, solid play at AAA.

    If Mes starts the season with the big club as the 50% catcher, I think it puts lots of pressure on the young man. Ease him back into it. And if he dominates at AAA, then he comes up all ready to assume a larger role and take off from there.
    Last edited by Kc61; 02-28-2013 at 03:42 PM.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    Doug, do you also feel then just keeping Mes as a backup is a wasted opportunity? If he isn't going to get playing time, then he should have been traded for an asset that would be used more?
    Keeping him as a back up, absolutely a waste. If they want to go 50-50 on the playing time, I am more on board to keeping him. But if the plan is to once again use him 35-40% of the time, and fully limit him to two pitchers, just trade him. That plan is terrible.

  16. #57
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    I'd love to see a 50-50 split right out of the gate. Now is the time to get Devin's confidence back and to let him prove he's capable of handling a major-league staff and big-time pitchers. And as Doug hinted at, it wouldn't kill a few of the vet pitchers to step up and accept Mes as capable receiver, even if he doesn't call the best game in the NL. As much as we all love Hanigan, the guy is a much better player when he's rested, and I think most of us can agree that Mesoraco's offensive potential blows away Hanigan's peak years, which we probably just witnessed between 2010-2012. And

    A year ago a lot of writers were picking Mes for ROY, in part due to his solid defense at a premium position. I'm sure a little of that got into his head. Hopefully the kid approaches this year with a new mindset, because they sky's the limit, and it starts this year.

  17. #58
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Keeping him as a back up, absolutely a waste. If they want to go 50-50 on the playing time, I am more on board to keeping him. But if the plan is to once again use him 35-40% of the time, and fully limit him to two pitchers, just trade him. That plan is terrible.
    Why is it so terrible? Ten years ago, I would probably agree with you because those teams weren't built to compete. This team is now built to not only compete, but to win a championship. They are going to put, what they feel, is the best product on the field, and most people in the organization feel that Hanigan is their best option at catcher. Hanigan has proven that he should be playing 60-70% of the time on this team, but that doesn't mean they should trade their backup catcher just because he might be able to play more somewhere else.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Developing talent sometimes seems difficult for the Reds. Stubbs was a good example of this, and Mes is falling into that category as well. A lot of their high profile prospects have sputtered (Duran, Yorman, Stubbs etc.)

    Now the obvious reaction to that is Joey Votto, but he took a long time to develop. Or rather maybe he took the right amount of time, reaching the major leagues at age 24. He was also developed in the regimes prior to this one, so maybe that has something to do with it. Frazier is 27 and just now getting a fulltime job at one position. Cozart, same thing. Got the fulltime job at age 26. Both have significant holes in their games.

    I just wonder about the development philosophy.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  20. #60
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Keeping him as a back up, absolutely a waste. If they want to go 50-50 on the playing time, I am more on board to keeping him. But if the plan is to once again use him 35-40% of the time, and fully limit him to two pitchers, just trade him. That plan is terrible.
    Last year was the first year Hanigan was able to stay healthy throughout the entire season. Couple that with Hanigan being one of the only Reds not named Joey Votto who knew how to find first base on a consistent basis. Mesoraco got his chance and unfortunately for him he didn't capitalize upon it. His playing time decreased after July when it became apparent that the Reds wanted to get Navaro some at bats heading towards the playoffs.

    I absolutely had zero problem with the way the Reds handled Mesoraco. Catcher was a position of strength last season on a team that went to the playoffs. When it became apparent that Hanigan was going to catch in the playoffs and Navaro was a better bat off the bench than Mesoraco, his PT began to diminish.

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