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Thread: Reds catching 2013 and after

  1. #76
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    He had the equivelent of 40 games worth of plate appearances and
    46 defensive games.

    He averaged 9.6 starts a month.

    Like Doug has pointed out, he started back to back games, what was it, twice?

    How is that "getting his chance"?
    Didn't you answer your own question?

    40 games is a full quarter of the season.

    1) What did he do with those ABs?
    2) What was the cost of his learning on the job?
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  3. #77
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Didn't you answer your own question?

    40 games is a full quarter of the season.

    1) What did he do with those ABs?
    2) What was the cost of his learning on the job?

    A quarter of a season is enough for you to declare that "maybe he's not the player you thought he was"?

    Wow.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  4. #78
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    You can always make an excuse for someone if they don't do what was expected. They were rushed. They were held back. They didn't play enough. They were worn down. They were used in the wrong situations. They were hitting in the wrong spot in the order. They didn't have protection in the order. They didn't have anyone hitting in front of them. Dusty made him hate to take pitches. And on it goes.

    This is called life. Take your opportunities and run with them. Plenty of guys have succeeded in similar situations. Devin isn't some sort of baseball experimentation of getting sporadic ABs at the age of 24. If he produces, he will get more time. Simple as that.

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  6. #79
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    A quarter of a season is enough for you to declare that "maybe he's not the player you thought he was"?

    Wow.
    A quarter of the year?

    I've been saying that since he was drafted, Raisor.

    But that's not the point, obviously.

    The point is that he was costing the Reds wins.

    You can do that when you don't have a shot at the pennant.

    You can't afford that when you have a team that's otherwise ready for a long playoff run. Hanigan is an above average catcher. Last season, Mesoraco wasn't even replacement level.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

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  8. #80
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    The Reds won 9 more games then the Cards last year. Can anyone honestly make a case that starting Mez more would have cost the Reds 9 games? No, they can't.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  9. #81
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    The Reds won 9 more games then the Cards last year. Can anyone honestly make a case that starting Mez more would have cost the Reds 9 games? No, they can't.
    I hope you have a better argument than this one.

    I always thought a contender wants to play the better player as often as possible. That's what the Reds did. Seems logical to me.

    Never heard a GM say -- hey, the young catcher probably won't cost us nine games or the division, so we might as well play him. Not concerned that the incumbent is better right now.

  10. #82
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I hope you have a better argument than this one.

    I always thought a contender wants to play the better player as often as possible. That's what the Reds did. Seems logical to me.

    Never heard a GM say -- hey, the young catcher probably won't cost us nine games or the division, so we might as well play him. Not concerned that the incumbent is better right now.
    My argument is that you have a young asset who can be developed into a productive hitter at a premium position and you can't do that when he's anchored to the bench. And by giving him a few extra opportunities last year would not have cost them the division.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  11. #83
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    IMO the fact that the Reds are even thinking about keeping Olivo over Mes is a head scratcher. It's flat out ignorant.

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  13. #84
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    My argument is that you have a young asset who can be developed into a productive hitter at a premium position and you can't do that when he's anchored to the bench. And by giving him a few extra opportunities last year would not have cost them the division.
    If only they hadn't traded away the crystal ball in the Latos deal.

  14. #85
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Now I am aware I don't know the "inside baseball" on the situation.

    But the biggest error the Reds organization made in 2012 was the handling of Mesoraco in my opinion.

  15. #86
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Now I am aware I don't know the "inside baseball" on the situation.

    But the biggest error the Reds organization made in 2012 was the handling of Mesoraco in my opinion.
    You may be right. Mes as backup catcher in 2012 didn't work.

    I think both sides of the argument reject Mes as backup catcher in 2013.

    Question is whether he plays more in the bigs this year or every day at AAA.

  16. #87
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Now I am aware I don't know the "inside baseball" on the situation.

    But the biggest error the Reds organization made in 2012 was the handling of Mesoraco in my opinion.
    Maybe, but mostly because it was a fairly error free season.

    But we really won't know how big of an error it was until we see what the long term effect it had on Mesoraco, because it really didn't have much effect on the Reds 2012 season.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  17. #88
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Maybe, but mostly because it was a fairly error free season.

    But we really won't know how big of an error it was until we see what the long term effect it had on Mesoraco, because it really didn't have much effect on the Reds 2012 season.
    More than anything I hate to see a pre-free-agency year "wasted" when it comes to blue-chip prospects. When it is a top prospects time, I think you plug him in the lineup and let him sink or swim.

    Unless you feel Mes learned invaluable knowledge this past season, if he turns out to be a solid player, 2012 cost us one season of him in the future.

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  19. #89
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    I was all for sending him to AAA early last year when it became clear that he was more of an afterthought than being part of The Plan. I was told he would learn more on the bench than in AAA.

    Now it seems that AAA is the idea the board is embracing. Curious.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  21. #90
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I was all for sending him to AAA early last year when it became clear that he was more of an afterthought than being part of The Plan. I was told he would learn more on the bench than in AAA.

    Now it seems that AAA is the idea the board is embracing. Curious.
    Not me. I think he did learn more on the bench than he would in AAA. Mainly he needs to learn a lot about the other hitters in the league and the players and pitchers on his own team. He can learn that every day whether he's playing or not, but he won't learn it in AAA.

    My take on 2013 is that Hanigan is the 50% to 60% of the time catcher with Mes getting the other days. If Mes is the player we think he is, he'll force the situation. Catching 40% of the team's innings and getting 250 PAs is a pretty important role on this team's bench. If it was another position, I think there would be a lot of outrage if the team chose a lesser player to fill that spot so that the team could save service time or get the kid more PAs. This team isn't rebuilding, it's trying to win a championship. The 2 best guys should be on the roster and performance on the field should decide PT.

    The real key to that on-field performance is getting the staff comfortable with Mes behind the plate. I think it, and not his bat, is what is limiting Mes PT. Why do the pitchers generally prefer Hanigan? Maybe there's more to it than people want to acknowledge. I'm a huge Mes fan, but to my eyes, he didn't look good behind the plate. I do think he looked ok hitting. Bad Luck was the major culprit at the plate.
    Last edited by mth123; 03-01-2013 at 06:04 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS


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