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Thread: Reds catching 2013 and after

  1. #91
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    I would think it would be hard to get comfortable behind the plate when:
    1. You're playing once or twice a week.
    2. You only get to catch two of the starters.

    I'm sure Latos would feel more comfortable with Mes if he got to pitch to Mes.

    I'm sure Cueto would feel more comfortable with Mes if he got to pitch to Mes.

    Dude is going to get any better sitting on the bench.

    If the Reds are truely "all in" than trading Mes and Hamilton for another upgrade in the rotation, or a replacement for Ludwick would seem like the thing to do.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  3. #92
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I would think it would be hard to get comfortable behind the plate when:
    1. You're playing once or twice a week.
    2. You only get to catch two of the starters.
    I didn't realize how difficult the backup catcher position really is.

    It's baseball. He knows how to play the game.

    He knew who he was going to catch.

    I would think he'd have been more prepared to catch Leake and Bailey considering they were the only two he had to catch. I also would think he'd have studied more film and taken more batting practice in order to be prepared during those games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I'm sure Latos would feel more comfortable with Mes if he got to pitch to Mes.

    I'm sure Cueto would feel more comfortable with Mes if he got to pitch to Mes.
    Yet, the pitchers he did catch-- Bailey and Chapman among them-- requested the veteran instead of him.

    Neither of those guys got more comfortable with him as the year wore on. In fact, it got worse. At least according to the pitchers.

    Since a catcher's primary job is to protect/ handle his pitcher and other pitchers didn't like throwing to him, I'd argue that your opinion needs revising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Dude is going to get any better sitting on the bench.
    Okay. So?

    The Reds are in it to win games. Period.

    The Cardinals look really tough this season. As a fan, I want the best players out there as much as possible. Give Mesoraco a couple days a week. IF (notice the capital letters) the young catchers can handle that responsibility, he can earn more time. If not, deal him. He certainly wouldn't be the first catching prospect/ Red prospect not to pan out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    If the Reds are truely "all in" than trading Mes and Hamilton for another upgrade in the rotation, or a replacement for Ludwick would seem like the thing to do.
    I don't think you could get a rotation upgrade at this point. You've got four possible TOR guys (Chapman, Latos, Cueto, Bailey) and Arroyo (who's nigh-untradeable), not to mention Leake in the wings. You're not going to block a free agent signee, as that's really bad for repeat business.

    IMO, they're going about this pretty much the right way. He's been given some time because of his minor league success. He has to earn more.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  4. #93
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    More than anything I hate to see a pre-free-agency year "wasted" when it comes to blue-chip prospects. When it is a top prospects time, I think you plug him in the lineup and let him sink or swim.

    Unless you feel Mes learned invaluable knowledge this past season, if he turns out to be a solid player, 2012 cost us one season of him in the future.
    Not sure that I understand. Has a decision been reached about him leaving after he hits FA?

  5. #94
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    If the Reds are truely "all in" than trading Mes and Hamilton for another upgrade in the rotation, or a replacement for Ludwick would seem like the thing to do.
    The Reds aren't all in.

  6. #95
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Not sure that I understand. Has a decision been reached about him leaving after he hits FA?
    If he is good, and stays, that will be 10-15 million that could have been spent elsewhere one year.

  7. #96
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    If he's bad, he could cost the Reds a pennant this season.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  8. #97
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    If he is good, and stays, that will be 10-15 million that could have been spent elsewhere one year.
    This isn't the Reds of 2002, where we would continually worry about FA for certain guys 5 years from now. While we certainly cannot ignore things like that, we also have to consider that this team is primed to win now. #1 objective in the near term is to hang flags.

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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    If he's bad, he could cost the Reds a pennant this season.
    Or having Olivo play 60 games a year instead of Mes could cost the Reds the pennant. The reality is, both are extreme longshots to have an impact on the end result.

    Can we lose the division? Sure. Votto and Cueto could get hurt. Chapman could completely lose the strike zone. I don't see us losing it based on who our backup catcher is and whether he gets 30,40, or 50% of the starts.

    The most important factors to me are...
    1. Are we playing our best catcher in games we need to win / playoffs? I have no doubt we will.
    2. What will help Mes become the player we want him to be?

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  11. #99
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    The Reds are in it to win games. Period.

    [...]

    IMO, they're going about this pretty much the right way. He's been given some time because of his minor league success. He has to earn more.
    1) If the Reds are in it to win games, why would playing the player who could be an upgrade be the wrong choice? He never had a reputation as a poor defender in the minor leagues, and did have a reputation as a much better bat than Hanigan could ever be.

    2) He has a .223 BABIP across his 237 MLB ABs. Simple logic says that the worm will turn. If he had a BABIP of league average (.300), he would have had 52 hits instead of the 44 that he has in his MLB career to this point. That would take his line to .242/.311/.390 with all hits being singles and no additional home runs, which already puts him as a virtual offensive equal to Hanigan and a clear upgrade to Olivo. Give the worm time to turn. The "what-if's" with Mesoraco are lofty enough to deserve to be discovered.

    Brandon Phillips had a line of .208/.242/.311 in his first full go-round in 2003. Sometimes players need time to develop and need a real opportunity to succeed, as Phillips was given in his first full year with the Reds. I don't think that a compelling argument to not play Mesoraco, given that Hanigan and he aren't exactly Larkin and Stillwell (Mesoraco is 8 years younger), has been made yet and I don't know that one can be made especially given the way that Baker handles the catching on his teams (Mesoraco might top out at 350 PAs, leaving 300-350 for Mesoraco).
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The base you want to acquire is home.

  12. #100
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I hope you have a better argument than this one.

    I always thought a contender wants to play the better player as often as possible. That's what the Reds did. Seems logical to me.

    Never heard a GM say -- hey, the young catcher probably won't cost us nine games or the division, so we might as well play him. Not concerned that the incumbent is better right now.
    Considering the roster we have right now and the extra playoff spot, I think the game is changing. You're going to see more thinking with an eye to "how do I get my team ready to win in October"?

  13. #101
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    This isn't the Reds of 2002, where we would continually worry about FA for certain guys 5 years from now. While we certainly cannot ignore things like that, we also have to consider that this team is primed to win now. #1 objective in the near term is to hang flags.
    Doesn't playing the guy who has shown across the minor leagues, with excellent, Votto-lite peripherals, that he can be the middle of the order RH bat that Gotham deserves count as putting the team in a position to succeed?

    Is settling for a guy who could be the main character in Casey at the Bat as the primary backup to a catcher who is going to be 33 this season, has missed time with injury in previous years, and could be entering his decline years putting the team in the best situation to win pennants?
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The base you want to acquire is home.

  14. #102
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    The Reds are going to win the division by 15 games. Does anyone really believe that if the Reds swapped Hanigan and Mes' playing time around it would cost the team the division?

    Really?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  15. #103
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    The Reds are going to win the division by 15 games. Does anyone really believe that if the Reds swapped Hanigan and Mes' playing time around it would cost the team the division?

    Really?
    You play your best lineup as often as you can.

    If you have a big division lead, you can rest starters more. But going into the season, you need to plan with your best players as your starters most nights.

    The Reds have the most talent, but that doesn't always translate into a division win, certainly not a runaway. Guys get hurt, underperform, we just don't know. Maybe the Reds' bullpen won't hold up and they'll lose games late. We just don't know.

    My view is that Hanigan's offense has declined. I think the catcher's position will be more open soon. But right now, the Reds need to use him most of the time.

  16. #104
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Then trade Mes and Hamilton.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  17. #105
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    Re: Reds catching 2013 and after

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    1) If the Reds are in it to win games, why would playing the player who could be an upgrade be the wrong choice?
    Might be? Okay, by this logic, Billy Hamilton might be the best OF the Reds have this season. Want him to come up and start? How about Yorman Rodriguez? He's the most talented prospect in the Cincinnati system. He might be able to pull a Pujols.

    The Reds are trying to balance player development with winning. That's a lot harder on good teams. Were this a poor team, Mesoraco would be the starter, and you'd hear no argument from me. But this is a good team, capable of winning the whole ball of wax.

    At this point, the possible upgrade isn't worth the risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    He never had a reputation as a poor defender in the minor leagues, and did have a reputation as a much better bat than Hanigan could ever be.
    Yes, he did. His first few years, Mesoraco had a reputation as a terrible defender. Good arm, slow times to second. Poor handler of pitches/ pitchers. Poor mechanics. Poor receiver. He (supposedly) improved, though most scouting reports I saw regarded his defense as "mixed" at best. Obviously, he needs to improve much more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    2) He has a .223 BABIP across his 237 MLB ABs. Simple logic says that the worm will turn.
    If he's a decent hitter, it will. But terrible hitters pretty much all struggle with BaBIP. Perhaps that .223 BaBIP is really who Mesoraco is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    If he had a BABIP of league average (.300), he would have had 52 hits instead of the 44 that he has in his MLB career to this point. That would take his line to .242/.311/.390 with all hits being singles and no additional home runs, which already puts him as a virtual offensive equal to Hanigan and a clear upgrade to Olivo. Give the worm time to turn. The "what-if's" with Mesoraco are lofty enough to deserve to be discovered.
    I'm not advocating he be sent to Siberia or even to AAA. I think he deserves another look-see-- as a clear backup to Hanigan. Again. IF he continues to hit the way he did last season, he won't deserve any more playing time. IF his BaBIP was a blip on the mathematical noise meter, he'll play more often.

    But he doesn't deserve anything based on his pedigree other than that 200 - 250 AB shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    Brandon Phillips had a line of .208/.242/.311 in his first full go-round in 2003. Sometimes players need time to develop and need a real opportunity to succeed, as Phillips was given in his first full year with the Reds.
    That year was one in which the Reds were not competing for a World Series title. This year, they are a legitimate team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    I don't think that a compelling argument to not play Mesoraco, given that Hanigan and he aren't exactly Larkin and Stillwell (Mesoraco is 8 years younger), has been made yet and I don't know that one can be made especially given the way that Baker handles the catching on his teams (Mesoraco might top out at 350 PAs, leaving 300-350 for Mesoraco).
    Again, a 60-40 split is fine with me, as long as Mesoraco doesn't again crap the bed. He was below replacement level last season in his first opportunity. He's got a long way to go, IMO, before he's even Kurt Stillwell, let alone Barry Larkin.

    As a backup, he's meh at this point. Because of his pedigree, I can see giving him a shot rather than Olivo. They gave him a shot last season instead of Navarro. This is about the same thing, IMO.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

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