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Thread: Reds sign Mark Prior

  1. #46
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    John Sickels has up a Prospect Retrospective on Mark Prior from this afternoon.

    So was it all Dusty Baker's fault? Well I'm sure the way Prior was used in 2003 was part of the problem, but I don't see how it can all be laid on Dusty. As I wrote in 2006:

    It should be noted that Prior was a California high school pitcher and a California college pitcher: he has more mileage on his arm than a lot of pitchers his age. "Flawless" mechanics or not, his health problems have not been out-of-bounds from what you'd expect given his background

    And of course, in retrospect Prior's mechanics were not flawless, at least if you buy into theories about "Inverted W" arm action and excess scapular loading.

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  3. #47
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    If you include the 97 hitters he faced in the post-season, he faced 960 hitters in 03.

    Does including post season #'s adjust the 264 figure much?

    Are those 264 pitchers or 264 seasons? Ex a guy like Randy Johnson did that twice after 02. Does he count as once or twice? (He did it 12 times total)
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...01-pitch.shtml

    They count 1 for every season

    Code:
    ALL LEAGUES & TEAMS
    2003-2012
    ALL POSITIONS
    BATTERS FACED >= 860
    
    
    T1   Dan Haren                 7   
    T1   Roy Halladay              7   
    T1   Mark Buehrle              7   
    T4   Javier Vazquez            6   
    T4   Bronson Arroyo            6   
    T4   Jon Garland               6   
    T4   James Shields             6   
    T4   Livan Hernandez           6   
    T4   Justin Verlander          6   
    T10  Matt Cain                 5   
    T10  Tim Hudson                5   
    T10  Jamie Moyer               5   
    T10  Johan Santana             5   
    T10  John Lackey               5   
    T10  Carlos Zambrano           5   
    T10  Doug Davis                5   
    T10  Roy Oswalt                5   
    T10  C.C. Sabathia             5   
    T10  Brandon Webb              5   
    T10  Andy Pettitte             5   
    T21  Greg Maddux               4   
    T21  Chris Carpenter           4   
    T21  Cliff Lee                 4   
    T21  Jake Westbrook            4   
    T21  Freddy Garcia             4   
    T21  Barry Zito                4   
    T21  Tim Lincecum              4   
    T21  Felix Hernandez           4   
    T21  Jason Marquis             4   
    T30  Randy Johnson             3   
    T30  Carl Pavano               3   
    T30  Edwin Jackson             3   
    T30  Adam Wainwright           3   
    T30  Randy Wolf                3   
    T30  Ervin Santana             3   
    T30  Dontrelle Willis          3   
    T30  Jered Weaver              3   
    T30  Derek Lowe                3   
    T30  Ubaldo Jimenez            3   
    T30  Jeremy Guthrie            3   
    T30  Bartolo Colon             3   
    T30  Jon Lester                3   
    T30  A.J. Burnett              3   
    T30  Zack Greinke              3   
    T30  Miguel Batista            3   
    T30  Brett Myers               3   
    T30  Aaron Harang              3   
    T48  R.A. Dickey               2   
    T48  Justin Masterson          2   
    T48  Ben Sheets                2   
    T48  Zach Duke                 2   
    T48  Mike Maroth               2   
    T48  C.J. Wilson               2   
    T48  Ricky Romero              2   
    T48  Rodrigo Lopez             2   
    T48  Joe Saunders              2   
    T48  Cole Hamels               2   
    T48  Jason Schmidt             2   
    T48  Kevin Millwood            2   
    T48  Jeff Suppan               2   
    T48  Kyle Lohse                2   
    T48  Jake Peavy                2   
    T48  Joel Pineiro              2   
    T48  Josh Beckett              2   
    T48  Mark Mulder               2   
    T48  Ricky Nolasco             2   
    T48  Aaron Cook                2   
    T48  Gil Meche                 2   
    T48  Sidney Ponson             2   
    T48  Chris Capuano             2   
    T48  Esteban Loaiza            2   
    T48  Yovani Gallardo           2   
    T48  Roberto Hernandez         2   
    T48  Clayton Richard           2   
    T48  Ian Kennedy               2   
    T48  Brian Lawrence            2   
    T48  Vicente Padilla           2   
    T48  Jason Jennings            2   
    T48  Brad Radke                2   
    T48  Mike Pelfrey              2   
    T48  Roger Clemens             2   
    T48  Ryan Dempster             2   
    T48  Jeff Weaver               2   
    T48  Ryan Franklin             2   
    T48  Clayton Kershaw           2   
    T48  Tom Glavine               2   
    T48  Russ Ortiz                2   
    T48  Matt Morris               2   
    T48  Tim Wakefield             2   
    T48  John Smoltz               2   
    T48  David Price               2   
    T92  Carlos Silva              1   
    T92  Jeremy Bonderman          1   
    T92  Shawn Estes               1   
    T92  Brett Tomko               1   
    T92  Daisuke Matsuzaka         1   
    T92  Kelvim Escobar            1   
    T92  Gio Gonzalez              1   
    T92  Steve Trachsel            1   
    T92  David Bush                1   
    T92  Tomo Ohka                 1   
    T92  Brad Penny                1   
    T92  Wayne Franklin            1   
    T92  Jason Johnson             1   
    T92  Gustavo Chacin            1   
    T92  Gavin Floyd               1   
    T92  Kerry Wood                1   
    T92  David Wells               1   
    T92  Jeff Francis              1   
    T92  Johnny Cueto              1   
    T92  Jason Vargas              1   
    T92  Daniel Cabrera            1   
    T92  Nate Robertson            1   
    T92  Josh Towers               1   
    T92  Chien-Ming Wang           1   
    T92  Trevor Cahill             1   
    T92  Nick Blackburn            1   
    T92  Matt Harrison             1   
    T92  John Lannan               1   
    T92  Mark Prior                1   
    T92  Curt Schilling            1   
    T92  Noah Lowry                1   
    T92  Daniel Hudson             1   
    T92  Kenny Rogers              1   
    T92  Ryan Drese                1   
    T92  Jair Jurrjens             1   
    T92  Ramon Ortiz               1   
    T92  Wandy Rodriguez           1   
    T92  Jon Lieber                1   
    T92  Eric Milton               1   
    T92  Scott Kazmir              1   
    T92  Cory Lidle                1   
    T92  John Thomson              1   
    T92  Darrell May               1   
    T92  Doug Fister               1   
    T92  Homer Bailey              1   
    T92  Braden Looper             1   
    T92  Jarrod Washburn           1   
    T92  Woody Williams            1   
    T92  Joe Blanton               1   
    T92  Ted Lilly                 1   
    T92  John Danks                1   
    T92  Tom Gorzelanny            1   
    T92  Pedro Martinez            1   
    T92  Ian Snell                 1   
    T92  Chad Gaudin               1   
    T92  Hideo Nomo                1   
    T92  Hiroki Kuroda             1   
    T92  Matt Garza                1

    And yes the extra batters slims the list down significantly (to 32) but it doesn't take into account the post seasons for the other guys.

    Near as I can see the 850 threshold is around the norm for a strong starter who stays healthy all season

  4. #48
    Member medford's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Had the team not melted down following the Bartman Ball, and went on to win the WS, nobody in chicagoland would give 2 cruds about how much Prior was used by Dusty.

    Apparently Dusty didn't think the Reds front office was mocking Cub fans enough, hence asking them to sign Prior to a minor league deal.

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    Revering4Blue (03-01-2013)

  6. #49
    a Red in Yankeetown elfmanvt07's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    And you've just caused me to read about the Inverted W and scapular loading for twenty minutes.
    2014 Reds record: 1-2

    I look like a banker in this...

  7. #50
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by The DARK View Post
    Reminds me of the Dontrelle Willis signing a couple years back... giving a MLB burnout that isn't too old and in good shape a shot at a minor comeback. I hope he might be able to fill in admirably in the same way Willis did.

    I'm glad to see the two of them on good terms, though. Given all the flak Baker took, I'm glad to see the player loyalty is still there.
    I am not sure this signing indicates how much loyalty Prior has towards Dusty Baker. This isn't a case of Prior finally deciding to make his long-awaited, eagerly anticipated return to baseball glory and graciously offering the Reds the first shot at signing him because of his loyalty to Dusty Baker.

    Let's not forget, Prior has tried to come back with several other teams before calling Dusty this season. Prior has had failed minor-league stints with the Padres in 2009, Rangers in 2010, Yankees in 2011, Red Sox in 2012 and even played in an independent minor league for awhile. It is possible Prior only called Dusty as a last resort when nobody else wanted him. Who knows?

    I don't think Prior's alleged love for Dusty has earned the Reds a coveted bonus here. The fact that Spring Training has already started and Prior has had to wait until now to get a non-roster invite from a team is a strong indication that his services were not highly sought after around the league this year. I think this is Dusty doing a favor for a friend rather than the Reds cashing in on the loyalty Dusty inspires in his former players.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 03-01-2013 at 06:02 PM.

  8. #51
    Member RedLegsToday's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by medford View Post
    When Stassburg blew out his elbow, and all the talk of the "inverted W" started proping up, the video of Prior's throwing motion showed a clear "inverted W". If they still attribute that as a cause to elbow wear or not, I don't know, but if that theory still applies, its pretty clear why he had elbow trouble.
    Don't know if this is brought up farther along in this thread, but, Prior's elbow trouble was the result of being hit by a comebacker and breaking his arm. He's never had tommy john surgery. His shoulder is what ended up ruined.

  9. #52
    I don't want to grow up Red Raindog's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I like the article --- I used to play fantasy football with Sickels years ago --- I'll say he's better at baseball and leave it at that!
    The older I get - the better I was

    and yes - I hate the Cardinals (Reds fan since 1958)

  10. #53
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by elfmanvt07 View Post
    And you've just caused me to read about the Inverted W and scapular loading for twenty minutes.
    Good stuff isn't it?

  11. #54
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    I like it
    Go BLUE!!!

  12. #55
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You don't think that a manager would get fired for having a 22 year old starter average 121 pitches over 13 straight starts in 2013? Well, other than the fact that it wouldn't happen more than once because the GM would tell him very clearly to never do it again unless he had a no hitter or perfect game going on, and even then, you better be really careful.
    I would present this thread as evidence that maybe there is more to it than is known.

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...ighlight=Peavy

  13. #56
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by elfmanvt07 View Post
    And you've just caused me to read about the Inverted W and scapular loading for twenty minutes.
    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...QEwBA&dur=1307

    The inverted W. Flaw in the mechanics. Just witnessed a sophomore on Matt's high school team break down because of the same thing. That flaw cannot be laid at the feet of Dusty Baker, and had more to do with Prior's problems, over a period of years than Dusty's usage. The way kids are used, early on, and the mechanics they employ have a huge affect on when and how they break down later. Nobody ever see's all those pitches and innings early on. They just blame the manager at the big league level when they break down. A narrow and poor way of thinking in my view. Prior was going to break down, regardless.
    Last edited by RANDY IN INDY; 03-01-2013 at 07:51 PM.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  14. #57
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    It's too bad Prior's coaches in the minors never corrected his mechanics. It would have saved him a lot of trouble. As others have mentioned, the "inverted W" (I guess it sounds cooler than capital "m"?) has been proven to cause lots of problems down the road for young pitchers.

    Hopefully Mark can help us in some capacity this year. Good signing IMO.

  15. #58
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    They count 1 for every season

    And yes the extra batters slims the list down significantly (to 32) but it doesn't take into account the post seasons for the other guys.

    Near as I can see the 850 threshold is around the norm for a strong starter who stays healthy all season
    Thanks. Can't say I am shocked to see Halladay and Buehrle up at the top of the list. haren would not have jumped to the front of my mind however.


    Reds fans may not want to look at the BR age 24 best comp for Mr. Prior.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ww.typepad.com
    Last edited by klw; 03-01-2013 at 06:30 PM.

  16. #59
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    They count 1 for every season

    Code:
    ALL LEAGUES & TEAMS
    2003-2012
    ALL POSITIONS
    BATTERS FACED >= 860
    
    
    T1   Dan Haren                 7   
    T1   Roy Halladay              7   
    T1   Mark Buehrle              7   
    T4   Javier Vazquez            6   
    T4   Bronson Arroyo            6   
    T4   Jon Garland               6   
    T4   James Shields             6   
    T4   Livan Hernandez           6   
    T4   Justin Verlander          6   
    T10  Matt Cain                 5   
    T10  Tim Hudson                5   
    T10  Jamie Moyer               5   
    T10  Johan Santana             5   
    T10  John Lackey               5   
    T10  Carlos Zambrano           5   
    T10  Doug Davis                5   
    T10  Roy Oswalt                5   
    T10  C.C. Sabathia             5   
    T10  Brandon Webb              5   
    T10  Andy Pettitte             5   
    T21  Greg Maddux               4   
    T21  Chris Carpenter           4   
    T21  Cliff Lee                 4   
    T21  Jake Westbrook            4   
    T21  Freddy Garcia             4   
    T21  Barry Zito                4   
    T21  Tim Lincecum              4   
    T21  Felix Hernandez           4   
    T21  Jason Marquis             4   
    T30  Randy Johnson             3   
    T30  Carl Pavano               3   
    T30  Edwin Jackson             3   
    T30  Adam Wainwright           3   
    T30  Randy Wolf                3   
    T30  Ervin Santana             3   
    T30  Dontrelle Willis          3   
    T30  Jered Weaver              3   
    T30  Derek Lowe                3   
    T30  Ubaldo Jimenez            3   
    T30  Jeremy Guthrie            3   
    T30  Bartolo Colon             3   
    T30  Jon Lester                3   
    T30  A.J. Burnett              3   
    T30  Zack Greinke              3   
    T30  Miguel Batista            3   
    T30  Brett Myers               3   
    T30  Aaron Harang              3   
    T48  R.A. Dickey               2   
    T48  Justin Masterson          2   
    T48  Ben Sheets                2   
    T48  Zach Duke                 2   
    T48  Mike Maroth               2   
    T48  C.J. Wilson               2   
    T48  Ricky Romero              2   
    T48  Rodrigo Lopez             2   
    T48  Joe Saunders              2   
    T48  Cole Hamels               2   
    T48  Jason Schmidt             2   
    T48  Kevin Millwood            2   
    T48  Jeff Suppan               2   
    T48  Kyle Lohse                2   
    T48  Jake Peavy                2   
    T48  Joel Pineiro              2   
    T48  Josh Beckett              2   
    T48  Mark Mulder               2   
    T48  Ricky Nolasco             2   
    T48  Aaron Cook                2   
    T48  Gil Meche                 2   
    T48  Sidney Ponson             2   
    T48  Chris Capuano             2   
    T48  Esteban Loaiza            2   
    T48  Yovani Gallardo           2   
    T48  Roberto Hernandez         2   
    T48  Clayton Richard           2   
    T48  Ian Kennedy               2   
    T48  Brian Lawrence            2   
    T48  Vicente Padilla           2   
    T48  Jason Jennings            2   
    T48  Brad Radke                2   
    T48  Mike Pelfrey              2   
    T48  Roger Clemens             2   
    T48  Ryan Dempster             2   
    T48  Jeff Weaver               2   
    T48  Ryan Franklin             2   
    T48  Clayton Kershaw           2   
    T48  Tom Glavine               2   
    T48  Russ Ortiz                2   
    T48  Matt Morris               2   
    T48  Tim Wakefield             2   
    T48  John Smoltz               2   
    T48  David Price               2   
    T92  Carlos Silva              1   
    T92  Jeremy Bonderman          1   
    T92  Shawn Estes               1   
    T92  Brett Tomko               1   
    T92  Daisuke Matsuzaka         1   
    T92  Kelvim Escobar            1   
    T92  Gio Gonzalez              1   
    T92  Steve Trachsel            1   
    T92  David Bush                1   
    T92  Tomo Ohka                 1   
    T92  Brad Penny                1   
    T92  Wayne Franklin            1   
    T92  Jason Johnson             1   
    T92  Gustavo Chacin            1   
    T92  Gavin Floyd               1   
    T92  Kerry Wood                1   
    T92  David Wells               1   
    T92  Jeff Francis              1   
    T92  Johnny Cueto              1   
    T92  Jason Vargas              1   
    T92  Daniel Cabrera            1   
    T92  Nate Robertson            1   
    T92  Josh Towers               1   
    T92  Chien-Ming Wang           1   
    T92  Trevor Cahill             1   
    T92  Nick Blackburn            1   
    T92  Matt Harrison             1   
    T92  John Lannan               1   
    T92  Mark Prior                1   
    T92  Curt Schilling            1   
    T92  Noah Lowry                1   
    T92  Daniel Hudson             1   
    T92  Kenny Rogers              1   
    T92  Ryan Drese                1   
    T92  Jair Jurrjens             1   
    T92  Ramon Ortiz               1   
    T92  Wandy Rodriguez           1   
    T92  Jon Lieber                1   
    T92  Eric Milton               1   
    T92  Scott Kazmir              1   
    T92  Cory Lidle                1   
    T92  John Thomson              1   
    T92  Darrell May               1   
    T92  Doug Fister               1   
    T92  Homer Bailey              1   
    T92  Braden Looper             1   
    T92  Jarrod Washburn           1   
    T92  Woody Williams            1   
    T92  Joe Blanton               1   
    T92  Ted Lilly                 1   
    T92  John Danks                1   
    T92  Tom Gorzelanny            1   
    T92  Pedro Martinez            1   
    T92  Ian Snell                 1   
    T92  Chad Gaudin               1   
    T92  Hideo Nomo                1   
    T92  Hiroki Kuroda             1   
    T92  Matt Garza                1

    And yes the extra batters slims the list down significantly (to 32) but it doesn't take into account the post seasons for the other guys.

    Near as I can see the 850 threshold is around the norm for a strong starter who stays healthy all season
    What does the list look like for pitchers under age 23?

  17. #60
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Good stuff isn't it?
    "scapular loading" would make a good name for a punk band. Inverted W sounds more like a boy band.


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