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Thread: 2013 MLS Thread

  1. #16
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    I think Cincinnati's best chance would be to start a 2nd tier club. I think at some point in the future, if soccer continues to grow, there is a good chance that a European promotion/relegation system will take hold in US soccer. I think MLS will grow to 24 teams in the next 8 years or so and then the growth after that will be more focused on a pyramid system.

    MLS is going to add a 2nd and maybe even a 3rd NYC team. Orlando, Atlanta and Carolina all have teams now that could be looked at and there have been rumors about Detroit and Minneapolis as well. Like someone else mentioned, a lot of it has to do with the ownership group and the location is somewhat secondary.

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  3. #17
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    I think Cincinnati's best chance would be to start a 2nd tier club. I think at some point in the future, if soccer continues to grow, there is a good chance that a European promotion/relegation system will take hold in US soccer. I think MLS will grow to 24 teams in the next 8 years or so and then the growth after that will be more focused on a pyramid system.

    MLS is going to add a 2nd and maybe even a 3rd NYC team. Orlando, Atlanta and Carolina all have teams now that could be looked at and there have been rumors about Detroit and Minneapolis as well. Like someone else mentioned, a lot of it has to do with the ownership group and the location is somewhat secondary.
    I don't know about that.

    Frankly, there's too much money involved in sports -- locally (via various sponsorship and media-rights signed by teams), politically (via government entities that aid in the construction of stadia and other facilities), and individually (via owners putting up their own money for ownership stakes) -- for anyone to suggest a promotion/relegation system be added to a stable league structure.

    Why would the owners of current teams -- many of whom have invested tens of millions of dollars into their clubs -- voluntarily agree to a system that might see their $100m facilities sitting empty as their club is relegated and they're forced to play in Toledo, Ohio or Little Rock, Arkansas for road games?

    Promotion and Relegation exist in European football associations because it has always been that way. If you remade the Premiership today, though, I doubt you'd find ANY support among the current members for such a system to continue existing.
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I don't know about that.

    Frankly, there's too much money involved in sports -- locally (via various sponsorship and media-rights signed by teams), politically (via government entities that aid in the construction of stadia and other facilities), and individually (via owners putting up their own money for ownership stakes) -- for anyone to suggest a promotion/relegation system be added to a stable league structure.

    Why would the owners of current teams -- many of whom have invested tens of millions of dollars into their clubs -- voluntarily agree to a system that might see their $100m facilities sitting empty as their club is relegated and they're forced to play in Toledo, Ohio or Little Rock, Arkansas for road games?

    Promotion and Relegation exist in European football associations because it has always been that way. If you remade the Premiership today, though, I doubt you'd find ANY support among the current members for such a system to continue existing.
    I would agree, but if you are looking to really grow the system then you need a way to add beyond 24 teams or so. I'm not saying this is going to happen tomorrow, but if there is enough support to grow the sport and the league, it is certainly a possibility at some point.

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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    I think Cincinnati's best chance would be to start a 2nd tier club. I think at some point in the future, if soccer continues to grow, there is a good chance that a European promotion/relegation system will take hold in US soccer. I think MLS will grow to 24 teams in the next 8 years or so and then the growth after that will be more focused on a pyramid system.

    MLS is going to add a 2nd and maybe even a 3rd NYC team. Orlando, Atlanta and Carolina all have teams now that could be looked at and there have been rumors about Detroit and Minneapolis as well. Like someone else mentioned, a lot of it has to do with the ownership group and the location is somewhat secondary.

    Never happen. Imagine if teams from NY, LA, Philly, or Chicago got relegated to the 2nd tier and Charleston, Dayton, and Harrisburg got promoted. It would kill interest and legitimacy.

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  6. #20
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Yeah, if you were going to see a relegation system here it would have been in baseball.
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    I would agree, but if you are looking to really grow the system then you need a way to add beyond 24 teams or so. I'm not saying this is going to happen tomorrow, but if there is enough support to grow the sport and the league, it is certainly a possibility at some point.
    American sports are fundamentally different than just about everywhere else because we're so much larger of a nation than anyone else. Remember -- the entire Premier League fits into an area that size of Alabama. We'll never reach a point in America where there are 5 teams in New York (ala Arsenal, West Ham, Fulham, Tottenham, and Chelsea) or 2 teams in Baltimore (Man U, Man City). There isn't enough money or attention to go around.

    I suspect the future for MLS is the same as it is for most American sports -- ~30 teams in the top metro areas (good news for Cincinnati / Dayton's eventual chances) and another ~15-50 permanent B/C level minor league squads elsewhere.
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    American sports are fundamentally different than just about everywhere else because we're so much larger of a nation than anyone else. Remember -- the entire Premier League fits into an area that size of Alabama. We'll never reach a point in America where there are 5 teams in New York (ala Arsenal, West Ham, Fulham, Tottenham, and Chelsea) or 2 teams in Baltimore (Man U, Man City). There isn't enough money or attention to go around.

    I suspect the future for MLS is the same as it is for most American sports -- ~30 teams in the top metro areas (good news for Cincinnati / Dayton's eventual chances) and another ~15-50 permanent B/C level minor league squads elsewhere.
    I don't think the only reason you have a promotion/relegation system is due to proximity though althought it does help for sure. The biggest factor is that there aren't as many sports and the attention is more focused like you mentioned. I tend to feel that soccer is such a global game, that its growth here would overcome more American conventions. Basically every league in the world has that type of system and there are actually a lot of benefits to growth. Why would a B level team in Cincinnati put a lot of money into salaries and facilities if they are always going to be a B level team?

    Like I said I don't think this is going to happen anytime real soon and is contingent upon continued growth of the sport. However if interest does continue to increase and the league continues to grow, I can see it as a real possiblity at some point in the future.

    Someone also mentioned baseball, but I think that is somewhat apples and oranges since it is the farm system not a bunch of independent teams.

  9. #23
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    On this point, here's a long but well written take on the future of MLS that touches on the idea of a permanent "second league" in sub-2m metro areas (with no talk of promotion / relegation):

    http://www.xiquarterly.com/2013/03/1...er-nationwide/

    There are many cities like Indianapolis and San Antonio that a second tier team could be sustainable in, without necessarily being a fit for MLS, while smaller crowds in smaller cities could also work sustainably at the third tier. Oddly enough, that’s perversely shown by the stubborn survival of the stepchild of American pro soccer in places MLS has yet to land. Milwaukee and Baltimore have since the 1980s both been supporting professional soccer teams: just ones that happen to be playing indoors. The fact is the appeal of indoor is waning fast: if the debate now is about getting the Manchester United fan to support MLS, getting him to support MISL is far-further-fetched (I say that sadly, as a former staffer in the MISL and a fan of the fast-paced game on its own terms).

    EPL or La Liga fans in Milwaukee or Syracuse or Wichita who grew up playing soccer are likely waiting for an outdoor professional soccer team to emerge that they see as a serious proposition to support. You won’t get all of them. But you can get enough of them if you give them a chance to build on their own organic passion for the game.

    Those fans want a team to support without a silly name and logo, playing roughly the same game they have played and see on television every weekend, a club connected to their community that they are proud to wave a scarf and bang a drum and build a tifo display for. By doing that, their collective presence – often coalescing in supporters groups – helps make it an exciting proposition for kids and families to fill the rest of the stands.

    There are thousands of these soccer fans in American and Canadian cities and some of them – like the Brickyard Battalion did in Indianapolis or the Crocketteers did in San Antonio – got off their couches and helped bring pro soccer to their cities without waiting for MLS to wave a magic wand. In Baltimore, they’re already embracing the pretty damn cool PDL Bohemians, just as Detroit’s fans are embracing their NPSL team. If amateur soccer can generate that interest, pro soccer would drive it to another level – if each league, under the oversight of US Soccer, remains focused on being stable and sustainable, tapping carefully into the right places to grow the game over the next decade.
    The article touches on a great deal more points than just this and is worth a read, IMO.
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Big win for Seattle last night over Tigres in the CCL. Fell behind a goal early (2 goals aggreagate), but took advantage of a Tigres red card and scored 3 times in the 2nd half to advance. The 2nd goal was pretty awesome strike from about 35 yards.

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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    Big win for Seattle last night over Tigres in the CCL. Fell behind a goal early (2 goals aggreagate), but took advantage of a Tigres red card and scored 3 times in the 2nd half to advance. The 2nd goal was pretty awesome strike from about 35 yards.
    Wonderful to see an MLS squad taking down the Mexicans in the CCL.

  12. #26
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    I've always found the whole promotion/relegation debate intriguing, but it's just not a financially viable model for a US league, either for the top-tier teams or the bottom tier teams. While it may sound cool that a team like, say the Dayton Dutch Lions, could work their way up through the pyramid to play in the MLS, it would probably be catastrophic financially to do so. Even jumping up one level can be a heavy burden for a team.

    I'd say the only way any kind of promotion-relegation comes about is if it's done within a limited scope, with some sort of financial security for owners to ensure their investment doesn't go in the toilet when they get relegated. First, it would probably just be pro/rel between say an MLS Premier League and an MLS first division. No pro/rel to lower levels (NASL, USL Pro, etc.) All teams within the top two tiers have to be part of the MLS with regard to salary structure and cap rules. I don't think anyone wants to see some outrageously wealthy guy buy some team like the Rochester Rhinos, fill the roster with stars for a few years to get promoted up to try and win the MLS, then let the team go bankrupt and at risk of folding.

    There would also have to be revenue sharing between the two levels so that owners of teams that get relegated still get a cut of the the league's financial pie. I would guess they would also have to consider making the MLS an open cup, season long tournament giving all teams in the league a shot at it rather than only having the top teams compete.

    In order to do that, you'd have to first have at least 30 viable teams to spread across the divisions, having maybe a 16-18 team premier league and a 12-14 team second league. Second, you'd have to have enough cities proven to support soccer to a degree that even the second league-tier teams can put 15,000-20,000 in the seats for a game. While I love the growth the game has shown since the founding of the MLS, I don't see the league having 30 teams with that kind of support for another 20 years. It's also going to require Eurosnob soccer fans to spend less time following Man U or Real Madrid and start supporting existing MLS, NASL, and USL teams in spite of the summer schedule and lack of pro/rel they complain about.
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  13. #27
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Relegation/Promotion will never happen. And there's been great points in this thread about it.

    Mainly, because heaven forbid one of the franchises who carry the leagues' revenue gets relegated.

  14. #28
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    While it may sound cool that a team like, say the Dayton Dutch Lions, could work their way up through the pyramid to play in the MLS, it would probably be catastrophic financially to do so. Even jumping up one level can be a heavy burden for a team.

    I'd say the only way any kind of promotion-relegation comes about is if it's done within a limited scope, with some sort of financial security for owners to ensure their investment doesn't go in the toilet when they get relegated. First, it would probably just be pro/rel between say an MLS Premier League and an MLS first division. No pro/rel to lower levels (NASL, USL Pro, etc.) All teams within the top two tiers have to be part of the MLS with regard to salary structure and cap rules. I don't think anyone wants to see some outrageously wealthy guy buy some team like the Rochester Rhinos, fill the roster with stars for a few years to get promoted up to try and win the MLS, then let the team go bankrupt and at risk of folding.
    I think the bigger issue is the mythical rich guy who buys the Rochester Rhinos or the Toledo Express and turns the team into a powerhouse that gets promoted and stays in the top division -- it does MLS no good to have teams in minor media markets as powerhouses while top media markets get relegated.

    As bad as the Houston Astros were last year, you can bet your bottom dollar there would be uproarious laughter in the MLB league office if the suggestion was made that Houston (#5 Metro Area in the US) be relegated to the International League and Pawtuckett (#38 Metro Area in US) replace them.

    It's also going to require Eurosnob soccer fans to spend less time following Man U or Real Madrid and start supporting existing MLS, NASL, and USL teams in spite of the summer schedule and lack of pro/rel they complain about.
    Alexi Lalas touched on this the other day, and there was a big writeup on ESPN.com about the idea that US Soccer fans need to support MLS (even if it is an inferior product to the EPL) if the sport is ever going to take the next step in America.

    That's a stickier issue because Americans, as a whole, gravitate towards superior sports products at the expense of local inferior offerings. It's why football fans in MAC schools stay at home to watch Big 10 games. I don't know how you convince people to change that behavior.
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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post

    Alexi Lalas touched on this the other day, and there was a big writeup on ESPN.com about the idea that US Soccer fans need to support MLS (even if it is an inferior product to the EPL) if the sport is ever going to take the next step in America.

    That's a stickier issue because Americans, as a whole, gravitate towards superior sports products at the expense of local inferior offerings. It's why football fans in MAC schools stay at home to watch Big 10 games. I don't know how you convince people to change that behavior.
    I've never understood why it isn't possible to support both. I like soccer and I happen to be a fan of a European team. That hasn't stopped me from being a supporter of an MLS team. In fact, I would say that my support of that European team has increased my support of the MLS team to that point that I would consider soccer my 2nd favorite sport to follow. Going to a Columbus Crew or Portland Timbers game doesn't make you any less of a Real Madrid or Liverpool fan, it is just practical if you live in Portland or Columbus.

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    Re: 2013 MLS Thread

    Went to the LA Galaxy/Herediano CCL game last night. LA Galaxy are going to be nasty this year. 8 goals at home in 2 games without Donovan. Also if you haven't got a chance to watch Jose Villareal play, he is the real deal. He is 19 and just scored 3 goals for the U-20 team and scored the 2nd goal for LA last night.


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