Chapman

[redsfandan]

First off, as I've said all along, the decision to start or relieve with Chapman is a debatable one. The Reds probably didn't decide until this spring.

Secondly, even with Chapman, they liked Broxton as a late inning reliever. You need a few very good relievers.

Third, Jocketty values the bullpen. He's recently made a number of fairly expensive bullpen signings. Madson is an obvious one. He signed Masset for two years. He's signed Ondrusek for two years. He traded for Marshall.

Fourth, the Reds still have high hopes for Leake apparently. He had a good 2011, a bad 2012. But they seem to like him enough and they like their rotation with him. Ergo, no Lohse.

Fifth, Jocketty spends money like a big time baseball exec. As does Castellini. All the gnashing of teeth about spending by the Reds seems to come from message board posters. The guys actually running the team are willing to spend on relievers.

The problem, at least to me, is that Walt overspends and consistently. Sure, the bullpen is important. But, there's only so much money to go around. Spending too much where you shouldn't is never wise.

[Brutus]

Again, why is Aroldis's opinion being considered here? What human being wouldn't ask to stay in a role where he does one thing (throw fastballs) for one inning (the 9th) every couple of days v. actually having to prepare to start every fifth day, developing his secondary offerings, and grow as a pitcher?

It's a role change. It's going to be uncomfortable, it's going to take time, and it's going to take some getting used to.

That his opinion is even being considered is mind-boggling to me.

We don't even know that his opinion IS being considered. You're jumping from point A to point B without any evidence.

All we know is that he said he prefers closing and that apparently the Reds are going to make him a closer. We have not been told that they consulted him in their decision.

[RedEye]

From David Schoenfield:

The funny thing about all this: The Reds -- the small-market Reds -- will now be paying Jonathan Broxton, probably their fourth-best reliever, $21 million over the next three years to pitch in potentially higher leverage situations than those Chapman will appear in. (To be fair to Broxton, he has a 3.52 ERA over the past three seasons, but R.J. Anderson tweeted to me that he added a cutter after joining the Reds late last season and that was his most effective strikeout pitch.)

Frankly, however, if Chapman's heart isn't in starting, it doesn't say a lot about his intestinal fortitude and moving him back to the pen is probably the right move. Starting pitching is harder and more challenging, a challenge Chapman may not be 100 percent invested in. Starters make a lot more money because it's a more valuable role and great ones are harder to come by. As much Baker thinks Chapman is an indispensable weapon in the bullpen, it's simply not true. No reliever is going to get a $100 million contract like Felix Hernandez and Zack Greinke received this offseason.

[Chip R]

Not at all.

I will certainly celebrate.

But you won't laugh?

[Brutus]

Mike Leake proved, effectively, last year that he isn't really a valid option for a team trying to win a World Series.

Short and soft-tossing aren't usually a recipe for greatness, and that's what the Reds just committed themselves to for 150+ innings.

Arroyo is a soft-tosser and he's developed into a terrific pitcher. Leake can too. He's got the smarts and the control to do so.

[RedEye]

Arroyo is a soft-tosser and he's developed into a terrific pitcher. Leake can too. He's got the smarts and the control to do so.

I'd rather give "possible Justin Verlander" a chance to develop than "possible Bronson Arroyo". Just saying.

[Brutus]

I'd rather give "possible Justin Verlander" a chance to develop than "possible Bronson Arroyo". Just saying.

So would I, but do it for that reason, not because of the exaggeration that Leake is a soft-tosser, thereby can't become a very productive pitcher for the Reds. Heck, most would say 92-93 MPH fastball is not exactly a "soft-tosser" anyhow.

Kirk Saarloos, now there was a soft-tosser.

[OnBaseMachine]

Mark Sheldon:

Contrary to a report, the #reds (Baker and Jocketty) said there was no decision on Chapman, nor will there be any announcement today.

https://twitter.com/m_sheldon

[dougdirt]

Interesting phrase, most "valuable" slider. You didn't say one of the best sliders.

You have to look at an Arolidis Chapman without his 100 MPH fastball. The "anti-closer" group has to say, ok, I want to put Aroldis in a spot where he cannot throw that 100 MPH fastball. Then decide.

To me, Aroldis with a 93 MPH fastball is a much more questionable pitcher than Aroldis with a 100 plus MPH fastball. It impacts his fastball. It also impacts a hitter's approach to Chapman. It likely impacts the "value" of all of his pitches.

I think keeping him as a closer is a reasonable decision.

When Chapman was starting in Louisville, 93 MPH was his LOW point in most games. He was 93-96. Even then, his slider, when he could avoid bouncing it, was a pretty good pitch. Is it as good when it won't be with a 100 MPH FB? Of course not. But that doesn't mean it isn't going to be a good pitch still.

[Raisor]

I don't blame Dusty for this, he's been consistent in wanting Chapman in the pen. I disagree with that, but that's why God gave everyone opinions.

I do blame Walt. Every single report since time began, Walt has said that Chapman's future was in the rotation. Every move in the off season was a move towards that goal (and last season as well with the signing of Madson). Chapman has pitched well in his starts during the spring, everything is on course.

And now this.

I've said before, and I will say it now, for the record: if he isn't going to start, you have to trade him to a team that will either overpay for a closer or think they can convert him to the rotation.

Closers have short shelf lives. Get value now.

[redsfandan]

I'm suggesting that the Reds winning this year is more crucial than Aroldis' professiona development, and that using him in the way they currently are might be the best course of action for the upcoming season.

Again, I'm not saying as fact, I'm suggesting there simply is a counter argument that exists, and there may be some logic you are not considering. I'm not sure why this has to be "only one answer" makes sense, especially when we don't have all of the facts in front of us.

IF you have a closer that convertes 90% of his saves and another closer that converts 91% of his saves but with more k's and less runs allowed, ... what's the difference? Not much.


I haven't 'preferred' to ignore anything you've said. Have I questioned you in an aggressive fashion? Oh my! You really DO have a thin skin. I didn't realize that though. I'm so sorry. This IS the internet and I thought you understood that just as much as I do. This is one of those sports topics that CAN be heated. But, if you think, or want to make it personal, leave me a pm.

The fact that you've made it personal in this thread says volumes.

[Tom Servo]

Limiting one of the potentially best pitchers in the league to only 70 innings a season is an incredible waste.


And let's call a spade a spade: Leake pretty much sucks.

[Raisor]

Arroyo is a soft-tosser and he's developed into a terrific pitcher. Leake can too. He's got the smarts and the control to do so.

I would question his smarts. If you have the money, you should be stealing t-shirts. If you want to steal the t shirt for the excitment, don't get caught.

[Patrick Bateman]

Yeah, I'm curious too. Cuz I completely misunderstood what? Maybe, because between you and me you're not making a point with any logic behind it. Put another way, if you were a gm you're team would suck cuz you'd be too afraid to do anything. If you're in chage you've gotta make bold moves sometimes. WALT FAILED. If you want him as your gm, congrats, he's all yours.

Walt failed? He brought the Reds 2 playoff teams in 3 years, after going a decade without playoffs before his tenure. How can one fail when the answer hasn't even been resolved yet?

If I was GM, it would probably suck, because I don't have any experience running any organization, let alone a major league baseball franchise (much like everyone here).

But, I wouldn't suck for the reason you stated, because it is a misrepresentation of what I am arguing. I'm sugegsting the Reds make decisions based on all of the information available, not make decisions on arbitrary pre-defined hypotheses.

[RedEye]

Mark Sheldon:

Contrary to a report, the #reds (Baker and Jocketty) said there was no decision on Chapman, nor will there be any announcement today.

https://twitter.com/m_sheldon

Uh... did everyone see this? Kind of important.