Chapman

[RollyInRaleigh]

Chapman's 2012 wasn't even the best relief season of the year.

And that means?

[Caveat Emperor]

And that means?

Means dial back the hyperbole about Chapman as a closer. He's really good, but this "one of the greatest relief seasons ever" stuff is just piling on.

[RedEye]

1) it's pretty fair considering Chapman just put up one of the greatest relief seasons ever, not surprising considering he may be the hardest throwing human ever.

2) I would not say that Homer Bailey is "debatably good" by any measure. He's pretty clearly a good starting pitcher.

Would you take Brian Wilson over Homer Bailey too? JJ Putz? Jonathan Broxton? Those guys all had dominant seasons at one point, too -- but I don't think you'd exchange them quite so quickly for a league average starter. Heck, most teams these days wouldn't deal a closer for a starter. That's because they know the starters are more valuable and -- quite often -- just overall better pitchers than their bullpen counterparts.

[dougdirt]

And that means?

That Kimbrel had a better one. And so did Fernando Rodney.

[RollyInRaleigh]

That Kimbrel had a better one. And so did Fernando Rodney.

And they are all, very, very good.

[RedEye]

Dave Cameron had some thoughts on this awhile back:

WAR, as you probably know, doesn’t think much of relief pitchers. The very best relievers in the game are generally worth +2 to +2.5 wins over a full season, or about the same as an average everyday player. This has caused quite a few people to state that WAR doesn’t work for relievers, because the results of the metric don’t match what they believe to be true about relief pitcher value. I think it works just fine.

Before you start quibbling that he doesn't account for the "leverage index", you should also read the whole post here.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Means dial back the hyperbole about Chapman as a closer. He's really good, but this "one of the greatest relief seasons ever" stuff is just piling on.

Could we just as easily say, "Dial back the hyperbole" about the potential of Chapman as a starter? Just askin'.......

[RedEye]

Could we just as easily say, "Dial back the hyperbole" about the potential of Chapman as a starter? Just askin'.......

I, for one, have never waxed hyperbolic on this thread. All I've said is that they should give Chapman a try in the rotation.

[westofyou]

You forgot to add that Baker was offended that he was even asked the question about how many innings Chapman would throw.

Probably tired of the peanut gallery aspect of this spring's sideshow.

Not the first manager to be offended, certainly not the last either

[RollyInRaleigh]

I, for one, have never waxed hyperbolic on this thread. All I've said is that they should give Chapman a try in the rotation.

I think they should have made the evaluation long ago. Trying to develop him as a starter this season, when the Reds are really in the mix for a World Series Championship, is not the best timing in my opinion, particularly when he is so dominant at the back of a game. It puts a lot of pressure on the other team, knowing that hammer is there, game in, game out. I think Chapman would struggle, mentally, if he wasn't as dominant as a starter as he has been as a closer. He lacks maturity in many ways and that is to be expected considering his circumstances. I am much more interested in the Reds success as a whole, and really just feel that they are better and stronger with Chapman in the closer role right now. Just my opinion, and everybody has one.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Probably tired of the peanut gallery aspect of this spring's sideshow.

Not the first manager to be offended, certainly not the last either

With guys like Daugherty and Fay asking the questions every day, it probably wouldn't be too hard to imagine getting a little "prickly."

[Caveat Emperor]

Could we just as easily say, "Dial back the hyperbole" about the potential of Chapman as a starter? Just askin'.......

No, because we know what Chapman did as a reliever and it's silly to suggest that it was GOAT material, seeing as 2 other guys had a better year than him. We don't know what he'd do as a starter.

[REDREAD]

If the Reds won the WS last year with Drew Stubbs batting leadoff, would we all say it wasn't a smart decision?

I can only speak for myself, but I would say that the Reds made best use of the resources they had at the time. If they won the WS, I'm not sure I would complain about the lineup Winning the WS makes management somewhat immune to second guessing, in that year, IMO.

[Vottomatic]

I think they should have made the evaluation long ago. Trying to develop him as a starter this season, when the Reds are really in the mix for a World Series Championship, is not the best timing in my opinion, particularly when he is so dominant at the back of a game. It puts a lot of pressure on the other team, knowing that hammer is there, game in, game out. I think Chapman would struggle, mentally, if he wasn't as dominant as a starter as he has been as a closer. He lacks maturity in many ways and that is to be expected considering his circumstances. I am much more interested in the Reds success as a whole, and really just feel that they are better and stronger with Chapman in the closer role right now. Just my opinion, and everybody has one.

I agree.

We already had a very good starting rotation and bullpen. I didn't see why they needed to mess with it now with this team a contender. They should have found out about Chapman starting earlier in his Reds career.

I've always felt that the emphasis should be on the offense. Seems like Reds pitchers pitch a lot of gems only to see a lack of run support. The Choo story, for me, will be the my main focus this year. We've needed a legit tablesetter and cleanup hitter for awhile now. Hopefully Ludwick gets it going. I'm really excited about Choo though.

[M2]

Probably tired of the peanut gallery aspect of this spring's sideshow.

Not the first manager to be offended, certainly not the last either

Though Dusty's been the one hammering nails into his head on this one. I generally give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's handled the Chapman situation poorly. Now he can't even answer a simple question about an innings target in a ST game.