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Thread: Chapman

  1. #556
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Chapman also struck out 15/9 to Rodney's ~9

    ERA would not be used to evaluate a starting pitcher in a discussion like this, I'm not sure why we are using it here.
    ERA would absolutely be used to evaluate a starting pitcher in a discussion like this, assuming it were built upon things he controls like walk rates, strikeout rates and keeping the baseball in the ballpark while limiting power because he is an elite groundball pitcher. Rodney isn't a Rheal Cormier ERA blip guy.

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  3. #557
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    That was my post about 1990 and you have mischaracterized it.

    Nothing is "proof positive" of anything in baseball. Nor did I say that.

    And top starting pitching IMO is more important than top relief pitching in winning a World Series.

    But that does not mean you take an elite closer and begin an experiment with him as starter when you are about to embark on, hopefully, a championship season.

    And whether Rivera gave up a big hit means absolutely nothing in this discussion. All players fail. But if the value of relievers is doubtful to you, please get a DVD of the 1990 World Series which shows just how valuable they can be.
    I remember that series. And none of those relievers were series MVP. That was Jose Rijo. Nothing those relievers did would have meant a damn without his dominant performance for more than one IP at a time.

    just putting the importance into perspective.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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  5. #558
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Same here. I know the rotation isn't broke but I don't want to fix it, I want to improve it. The Bengals made the playoffs last year. The Bearcats made the NCAA tournament. Believe you me, there's plenty of room for improvement for both teams as well as the Reds.

    However, the problem with Chapman in the rotation is judging his success. In his first start if he goes 5 innings, strikes out 8 guys and gives up 3 runs, is that a success or a failure? If that's his average for the first 4-5 starts, I think people are going to start to wonder - especially in this instant gratification society - if he should go back to the bullpen - especially if the bullpen blows a few saves.
    The starts you are describing sound just fine to me. Leake would be tickled with those numbers. If Chapman is doing that, he sure as heck won't be the problem -- and he'll be pointing in the right direction!
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  6. #559
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I am so sick of this line of argument. Just because a team wins doesn't mean they are beyond reproach. We should all root for an astute Reds front office that strives for more perfection and efficiency no matter what their results on the field.
    Man, I was just speaking for myself.
    I guess it's frustrating to read posts that claim "Walt failed", "Walt is an idiot" etc
    when the decision isn't necessarily a no brainer.

    Maybe the Reds felt that Leake starting + Chapman closing is greater than Chapman starting + Leake in AAA or a long man.

    It's a team game, not just about maximizing Chapman.

    As far as Stubbs goes. It's easy to say that Stubbs should've been upgraded. Walt shopped around at the trade deadline last year. Apparently, the cost for Span or another upgrade wasn't worth the asking price. The way the playoffs worked out, I doubt a better CF would've made a difference in the outcome.
    We'll never know for sure, but I doubt it.

    Now fast forward to this year. Stubbs was a piece of the Choo deal. I think most of use would rather have Choo this year than Span. There's no clear cut answer though.. Is 3 years of Span (at cost X) better than 1 year of Choo at the cost we paid? This is all debatable.

    But I will still say, if the Reds win a WS this year, I'm not going to complain about Logan's role in the pen, Chapman starting or anything like that. I'll be too happy that everything worked out, not fretting over what decisions weren't optimized.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  7. #560
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    The starts you are describing sound just fine to me. Leake would be tickled with those numbers. If he's doing that, he sure as heck won't be the problem -- and he'll be pointing in the right direction!
    To you, maybe. But that was my point. You would see that as fine. Others wouldn't see that as "dominant." Remember, that's the average. More than likely he'll have a few that are better than that and a few that are worse than that.

    I agree that Leake would be tickled with those numbers but Chapman is supposed to be a major upgrade to Leake. If he's not blowing guys away as a starter like he did in the bullpen, others - especially the powers that be - may not be as generous as you are.
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  9. #561
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    So does smart roster management. If Chapman is the closer, Walt's overall plan makes less sense. I actually don't think they needed Broxton in either scenario -- I'm not big on overpaying for RP in general.
    It's hard to say.
    There's a financial aspect to this game, but I can't see the harm signing Broxton did to the roster this year.
    Other than a second LH reliever, what weakness was not addressed this winter?
    Looks like the money end worked out perfectly.

    I trust that Walt isn't going to spend money recklessly and Broxton's contract isn't going to make us lose Latos or another impact player down the road. Seems like he and Cast have a plan. The money was there for Broxton. Why not spend it? The team is better with Broxton than without him.. (Do you agree with that?)
    Would you rather see Logan/Simon/ARrendondo in the RH setup role?
    Maybe Hoover could handle that role, but there's always room for more quality pitching.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  10. #562
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by gilpdawg View Post
    If Dusty is being insubordinate he needs to be removed from the position. Walt/Cast are in charge.
    There's a difference between insubordination and a difference of opinion on how to deploy personnel. Let's not pretend that Dusty vs. Walt is the first difference of opinions between the manager and the front office.
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  12. #563
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    I remember that series. And none of those relievers were series MVP. That was Jose Rijo. Nothing those relievers did would have meant a damn without his dominant performance for more than one IP at a time.

    just putting the importance into perspective.
    LOL, let's get the more complete story.

    The NL Championship Series MVPs were Rob Dibble and Randy Myers.

    In the World Series, one or two of the Nasty Boys pitched in all four games.

    In the first game, it was a cake walk. Rijo pitched great, Dibble and Myers finished, 7-0 victory.

    In the second game, Danny Jackson was knocked out after 2.2 innings. Reds won in 10 innings, 5-4, with Charlton and Dibble (2 innings) finishing scorelessly.

    In the third game, Browning allowed three early runs. Reds won after exploding for 8 runs, with Dibble and Myers finishing.

    In the final game, Rijo pitched well, but fell behind 1-0. Reds won 2-1 with two late runs. Myers pitched the ninth for the save.

    The relievers were very important in at least two of those games. And even when Rijo pitched well, he was helped by the offense (game 1) and by the bullpen (game 4).

    You need good starters. You also need good relievers.
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-21-2013 at 05:12 PM.

  13. #564
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    You need good starters. You also need good relievers.
    No bullpen in the world can save a terrible rotation, and a great rotation can make up for a shaky bullpen.

    Plus, there's always bullpen help available during the season. The Reds acquired Alfredo Simon for nothing and JJ Hoover for Nothing +/- a few hundred pounds of dead weight.

    Closers? Reds got one of those at the deadline too. Starting pitching? Get out your wallet, your credit card and firstborn child.

    Truth is, if Leake continues to stink in the rotation, the Reds are committed to him for 150+ innings. If something goes wrong in the bullpen, there are a half dozen teams the Reds can call for help at any point in the year.

    So yes, you need good pitchers all over your staff. It's just a hell of a lot easier to find one group of them than the other.
    Championships Matter.
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  15. #565
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    To you, maybe. But that was my point. You would see that as fine. Others wouldn't see that as "dominant." Remember, that's the average. More than likely he'll have a few that are better than that and a few that are worse than that.

    I agree that Leake would be tickled with those numbers but Chapman is supposed to be a major upgrade to Leake. If he's not blowing guys away as a starter like he did in the bullpen, others - especially the powers that be - may not be as generous as you are.
    I would think he'd get a longer leash than that.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    No bullpen in the world can save a terrible rotation, and a great rotation can make up for a shaky bullpen.

    Plus, there's always bullpen help available during the season. The Reds acquired Alfredo Simon for nothing and JJ Hoover for Nothing +/- a few hundred pounds of dead weight.

    Closers? Reds got one of those at the deadline too. Starting pitching? Get out your wallet, your credit card and firstborn child.

    Truth is, if Leake continues to stink in the rotation, the Reds are committed to him for 150+ innings. If something goes wrong in the bullpen, there are a half dozen teams the Reds can call for help at any point in the year.

    So yes, you need good pitchers all over your staff. It's just a hell of a lot easier to find one group of them than the other.
    Bad bullpens and frequent late inning losses can tear a team apart.

    But again, nobody is debating that starting pitching is generally more important.

    The issue here is different. It relates to removing a guy from a proven position and undergoing an in-season experiment moving him to a new role with a high failure rate.

    I think bullpens are important enough so that such an experiment could come at a major cost. Obviously you and the other "anti-closer" guys think bullpens are easily stocked and it's no big deal to remove it's best member.

    Just disagree, that's all.

  17. #567
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Bad bullpens and frequent late inning losses can tear a team apart.

    I think bullpens are important enough so that such an experiment could come at a major cost. Obviously you and the other "anti-closer" guys think bullpens are easily stocked and it's no big deal to remove it's best member.

    Just disagree, that's all.
    The Reds returning bullpenners, sans Chapman, combined for a 2.84 ERA with the Reds last year.

  18. #568
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The issue here is different. It relates to removing a guy from a proven position and undergoing an in-season experiment moving him to a new role with a high failure rate.

    I think bullpens are important enough so that such an experiment could come at a major cost. Obviously you and the other "anti-closer" guys think bullpens are easily stocked and it's no big deal to remove it's best member.

    Just disagree, that's all.
    CHAPMAN WAS SIGNED AS A STARTER!!! This also drives me nuts about this. He's been a starter since Cuba! It's the closing that was the experiment since they were worried about his arm and getting acclimated to USA.

    Yes, it's been successful but Chapman still lost 6 game last year. That's more than most closers. It's also not being "anti-closer". It's about the closer being over-valued and over-stated.

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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    I remember that series. And none of those relievers were series MVP. That was Jose Rijo. Nothing those relievers did would have meant a damn without his dominant performance for more than one IP at a time.

    just putting the importance into perspective.
    And ironically enough Rijo was a pretty valuable reliever for the Reds before he was moved into the rotation.
    Last edited by puca; 03-21-2013 at 05:40 PM.

  20. #570
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    Re: Chapman

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The Reds returning bullpenners, sans Chapman, combined for a 2.84 ERA with the Reds last year.
    Let's not pretend the Reds rotation is chopped liver w/o Chapman either. Both ends of the pitching was great last year. Hence, the question mark about what to do. I'd still leave him in the pen, in the rotation you'd have to seriously limit his innings. I'd consider stretching him out towards August if you're doing exceptionally well and think you might start him in the playoffs.


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