The Reds & and the new DH debate

[M2]

Hyperbole alert: The DH sucks because it robs the fan of seeing pitchers flail and guys gimp.

No it sucks because the essence of the game is that all nine players are expected to be players, taking part both at the plate and in the field. It sucks because it's more adult league softball than professional baseball.

The DH sucks like giving Dwight Howard a designated free throw taker would suck.

[REDREAD]

The DH sucks like giving Dwight Howard a designated free throw taker would suck.

I guess I don't understand this analogy. Is Dwight Howard expected to bring the ball up the court? No, a point guard does that (most of the time).

Is Votto expected to play SS or CF when the team wants him to? Nope.

All pro sports are very specialized.

Let's say we had a crystal ball. We have a chance to draft Latos. We look into the future and see that he'll never get a hit or walk in his entire career. We'd still draft him, right? Shaq was awful at shooting free throws (at least in his early career), but that's not what he was paid to do, so the team tolerated his deficiency there.

I mean, I understand, NL fans grew up seeing the pitcher hit, they like it, and will resist change. I get it. But I don't see how a pitcher haplessly getting his at bat "over with" makes him a complete player. It doesn't. 95% of pitchers are incompetent hitters compared to position players, but it really doesn't matter.
A position player that loses his ability to field, but can still hit, will still have a job somewhere. A pitcher that can't pitch, but still hits well for a pitcher is out of a job.

[westofyou]

I guess I don't understand this analogy. Is Dwight Howard expected to bring the ball up the court? No, a point guard does that (most of the time).

Is Votto expected to play SS or CF when the team wants him to? Nope.

All pro sports are very specialized.

Let's say we had a crystal ball. We have a chance to draft Latos. We look into the future and see that he'll never get a hit or walk in his entire career. We'd still draft him, right? Shaq was awful at shooting free throws (at least in his early career), but that's not what he was paid to do, so the team tolerated his deficiency there.

I mean, I understand, NL fans grew up seeing the pitcher hit, they like it, and will resist change. I get it. But I don't see how a pitcher haplessly getting his at bat "over with" makes him a complete player. It doesn't. 95% of pitchers are incompetent hitters compared to position players, but it really doesn't matter.
A position player that loses his ability to field, but can still hit, will still have a job somewhere. A pitcher that can't pitch, but still hits well for a pitcher is out of a job.

I remember when the AL pitchers hit, good times

[M2]

I guess I don't understand this analogy. Is Dwight Howard expected to bring the ball up the court? No, a point guard does that (most of the time).

But he is expected to take his free throw shots when he gets fouled. No one is letting Dwight Howard out of taking free throws just because he's rotten at it. It's his cross to bear and his teams have to weigh his assets in relation to his massive free throw shooting deficiency.

This has nothing to do with players having different defensive assignments. Yet, in National League baseball, every player who has a defensive assignment also has an offensive assignment, and vice versa. It's fundamental to the sport itself, the prime requirement for being a player.

[jojo]

It sucks because it's more adult league softball than professional baseball.

The biggest difference between the AL and NL style? The DH pretty much eliminates the double switch. It's pretty tough to see how eliminating the need to down grade a position player in order to compensate for the glaring specialization of the pitcher (a fair characterization of the double switch) makes the AL like rec league softball.

I get that a double switch might occasionally be curious but most often they are pedestrian after thoughts conerning intriguing strategy. Double switches aren't exactly a popular subject on redszone with threads devoted to them being both short and few and far between.

But lets be honest. Comparing the DH to giving Dwight Howard a designated free throw taker is a false analogy. A more accurate analogy given the "strategy" associated with letting pitchers hit would be this-not having the DH is like switching Pau Gasol for Jordan Hill (or if youre retro, AC Green for Kurt Rambis) because Dwight Howard can't shoot free throws.

So again, it's actually the pitcher that is a more specialized player than a DH (especially since the modern DH often rotates between DH and position play) and the strategy used to compensate for the specialization of the pitcher generally involves downgrading a position player as part of a double switch.

How does that make the AL like beer league softball and the NL enlightened? In the abstract (put yourself in the shoes of a person just learning about baseball) how does that even make sense?

[jojo]

Browbeat alert - No reason ever will be worth a DH in my world

I don't think you understand what browbeat means.

BTW, the above is actually a closed mindset alert.

[westofyou]

I don't think you understand what browbeat means.

BTW, the above is actually a closed mindset alert.

I know what I know and I know I think the DH is a load of crap and no amount of hyperbole about how good it is can browbeat me into excepting it.

[jojo]

I know what I know and I know I think the DH is a load of crap and no amount of hyperbole about how good it is can browbeat me into excepting it.

You really don't understand what browbeat means.

[westofyou]

You really don't understand what browbeat means.

If you say so.

[RFS62]

You really don't understand what browbeat means.

You'd certainly be the one to educate us.

There are so many different subtle elements of strategy in play when the pitcher hits.

Teams are rewarded for having a complete athlete when they have a pitcher who can hit a little and bunt. That may not be interesting to you, but it is to me and a lot of other fans.

I remember Koufax talking about how important it is to get the number 8 man for the third out, so the pitcher will have to lead off the next inning.

It's not about being a traditionalist. It's about a better brand of baseball, more thinking, more strategy, and to Chili's point, more punishment for lacking the basic skills of the game.

[RollyInRaleigh]

You'd certainly be the one to educate us.

There are so many different subtle elements of strategy in play when the pitcher hits.

Teams are rewarded for having a complete athlete when they have a pitcher who can hit a little and bunt. That may not be interesting to you, but it is to me and a lot of other fans.

I remember Koufax talking about how important it is to get the number 8 man for the third out, so the pitcher will have to lead off the next inning.

It's not about being a traditionalist. It's about a better brand of baseball, more thinking, more strategy, and to Chili's point, more punishment for lacking the basic skills of the game.

Here, here!

[M2]

But lets be honest. Comparing the DH to giving Dwight Howard a designated free throw taker is a false analogy. A more accurate analogy given the "strategy" associated with letting pitchers hit would be this-not having the DH is like switching Pau Gasol for Jordan Hill (or if youre retro, AC Green for Kurt Rambis) because Dwight Howard can't shoot free throws.

You're bad at analogies.

How does that make the AL like beer league softball and the NL enlightened? In the abstract (put yourself in the shoes of a person just learning about baseball) how does that even make sense?

You're also rotten at summation.

Hard to make this simpler: some people (let's call them baseball fans) like the requirement that field players, even the pitcher, have to hit and that all hitters have to play the field. We don't care to see pitchers and DHs get a free pass from having to the things they're not good at doing.

[Roy Tucker]

A little voice is telling me I don't think this thread will convince many people to switch sides of the DH street.

[jojo]

You'd certainly be the one to educate us.

At the risk of squelching the latest contrived meme, id' simply refer you to any online dictionary for the definition of "browbeat". Ironically, it's actually ad homimen to label a rational argument in opposition to one's opinion as browbeating.

There are so many different subtle elements of strategy in play when the pitcher hits.

Teams are rewarded for having a complete athlete when they have a pitcher who can hit a little and bunt. That may not be interesting to you, but it is to me and a lot of other fans.

It's also a rarity to have a pitcher who can hit. On any given year about 50% of pitcher PAs end in a strikeout or a bunt. The roughly ten percent of the time the PA ends with a bunt isn't a symbol of grande strategy. It's a concession that roughly 85% of the time the pitcher is going to make an out anyway. If there is a man on first or second base with fewer than two outs, the pitcher almost always bunts. If he swings away, he almost always makes an out. There is intrigue there?

BTW, I've never said that enjoying the NL style of play is wrong. I watch more AL AND NL baseball than a sane individual should. Just to point out a little more irony... I'm not the one arguing that one style of play should be abolished. I've simply pointed out that the AL style is a very valid style and several arguments often used by fans of the NL style to denigrate the AL style frankly, aren't valid or consistent with the facts. This thread has several such examples.

I haven't even argued that one is wrong to disagree with my position on the DH.

I remember Koufax talking about how important it is to get the number 8 man for the third out, so the pitcher will have to lead off the next inning.

It's not about being a traditionalist. It's about a better brand of baseball, more thinking, more strategy, and to Chili's point, more punishment for lacking the basic skills of the game.

The NL style doesn't punish one for lacking skill. If a position player can hit but can't field, stick him in left because "left field defense" doesn't matter (remember the Dunn argument concerning player value and how those who suggested player value should consider both offensive and defensive value were browbeaten actually by many of the same people who in this very thread have suggested the DH should be abolished or the AL is a style for non-thinkers?). Pitchers can't hit a lick and they can potentially bat 4 times a game. Double switches generally involve a player of lesser skill replacing a player of greater skill. It's a stretch to argue the NL punishes one for lacking skill because the NL game doesn't do so consistently.

[jojo]

Hard to make this simpler: some people (let's call them baseball fans) like the requirement that field players, even the pitcher, have to hit and that all hitters have to play the field. We don't care to see pitchers and DHs get a free pass from having to the things they're not good at doing.

Hard to make this simpler: some people (lets call them baseball fans) think it's perfectly valid to prefer watching Edgar Martinez hit versus Aaron Harang and think it's completely arbitrary to demand that field players, even the pitcher, have to hit and that all hitters have to play the field. We can certainly understand how someone might revel in a great glove getting to play the field because a major league quality bat is taking PAs away from a specialized player that is largely encouraged to ignore hitting once he is signed and enters the player development system.

If someone would prefer to watch a pitcher take PAs and the relatively small amount of in game strategy that gets evoked to compensate for purposefully placing a black hole in the lineup, that's great. Each to their own.