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Thread: The Reds & and the new DH debate

  1. #301
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    I remember people thinking the wild card was going to ruin baseball.

    Turns out it was probably Bud's greatest idea.

    I think that if the DH is adopted in the NL, people will grumble for about a year and then get used to it. Maybe even eventually prefer it.
    For example, when Votto was playing on a sore knee last year, it sure would've been nice to have the luxury to DH him while the medical staff took a few weeks to decide if he was really injured or not.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  3. #302
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I remember people thinking the wild card was going to ruin baseball.

    Turns out it was probably Bud's greatest idea.

    I think that if the DH is adopted in the NL, people will grumble for about a year and then get used to it. Maybe even eventually prefer it.
    For example, when Votto was playing on a sore knee last year, it sure would've been nice to have the luxury to DH him while the medical staff took a few weeks to decide if he was really injured or not.
    This is pretty much my stance on it. I'm indifferent about it because I can see both sides of the argument. I don't think if the NL gets rid of the DH that cats and dogs are going to start living together or the Lake of Fire will open up in down town Chicago either. It won't be the end of the world. The kind of ball that Latin American and Asian countries have is still great. All of those leagues have the DH. In Japan, they appreciate the fundamentals more than most Americans do and they have a DH.
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  4. #303
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I remember people thinking the wild card was going to ruin baseball. I think that if the DH is adopted in the NL, people will grumble for about a year and then get used to it. Maybe even eventually prefer it.
    DH vs Wild Card? Put that under APPLES vs ORANGES... and put it at the top of the list.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  5. #304
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by blumj View Post
    A lot of baseball fans now grew up watching nothing but AL baseball, how can anyone be shocked that there are people who prefer the game they grew up watching? Even if you consider it inferior, they're used to it. It's only recently that fans can watch any game they want whenever they want, and even then, they're still going to watch their local team's games way more often than not, and become accustomed to whatever style that team happens to play. If you believe that makes them not serious baseball fans, okay.
    It's apparently okay to question the intelligence or dedication of baseball fans who enjoy the AL style of play, but it's browbeating to question someone's reasons for holding the opinion that the DH is unacceptable.

    Last edited by jojo; 03-21-2013 at 10:18 AM.
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  6. #305
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Ron Bloomberg endorses this thread for its righteous tone.

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  8. #306
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I remember people thinking the wild card was going to ruin baseball.

    Turns out it was probably Bud's greatest idea.

    I think that if the DH is adopted in the NL, people will grumble for about a year and then get used to it. Maybe even eventually prefer it.
    For example, when Votto was playing on a sore knee last year, it sure would've been nice to have the luxury to DH him while the medical staff took a few weeks to decide if he was really injured or not.
    I still don't like the wildcard, but that is another topic.

    I know for a fact that I would stop following baseball as close if the DH were adopted in the NL. I already switched league alliances once because I found it a less interesting brand of baseball. I'm not looking for more excitement out of baseball - there are already a few other sports I find more exciting - I watch baseball because I find it interesting.
    Last edited by puca; 03-21-2013 at 10:48 AM.

  9. #307
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Ron Bloomberg endorses this thread for its righteous tone.
    The ones who didn't have to google Blomberg to get the reference aren't the ones actually being holier than the Pope in this thread.

    Ironically he was too fragile to play DH.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #308
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    I like those so called "holier than the pope guys!" And I still hate the DH!
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    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  11. #309
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    The ones who didn't have to google Blomberg to get the reference aren't the ones actually being holier than the Pope in this thread.

    Ironically he was too fragile to play DH.
    And torn a ligament when placed in the OF in 77

    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment

  12. #310
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    roses are red
    violets are blue
    the dh sucks

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  14. #311
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by blumj View Post
    A lot of baseball fans now grew up watching nothing but AL baseball, how can anyone be shocked that there are people who prefer the game they grew up watching? Even if you consider it inferior, they're used to it. It's only recently that fans can watch any game they want whenever they want, and even then, they're still going to watch their local team's games way more often than not, and become accustomed to whatever style that team happens to play. If you believe that makes them not serious baseball fans, okay.
    Sure there are those who grew up on on the AL and the DH. They may even prefer it. However, I have yet to meet one person who favors the DH so much that they would be turned off baseball if the AL dumped it. Not the same for NL fans. I think MLB would be wiseto dump the DH and find some way to aappease the players than to push the DH on the NL and risk losing fans. If you think the NL is at a competitive disadvantage because of the lack of a DH, imagine how they would do if NL teams suddenly saw a 15-20% drop in attendance and tv ratings because they ticked off a good portion of their fan base. Such a drop in revenue could be hard for some small-market teams to overcome.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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  16. #312
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    I still like the DH.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  17. #313
    Member LeDoux's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I didn't bypass the primary point of discussion. I aimed directly at the heart of it. The notion that the NL is superior because it is less specialized just isn't accurate. It is just specialized in a way meant to compensate for a huge talent disparity in one spot of it's batting order.

    If your point simply was that the AL uses a DH and that makes the AL different than the NL, then, I concede that point.

    If you want to talk about bypassing the primary point of the discussion, post 278 largely is a hyperbolic strawman that no one in this thread has ever advocated. It certainly isn't a logical extension of the argument for the DH and frankly the sentiment represents opinion about the pinch hitter "back in the day". NL fans now cherish the notion of a pinch hitter and defensive replacement-i.e. a guy who may only bat and a guy who may only play defense as a tandem filling a single lineup spot (that math doesn't seem to add up to "nine on nine" to me)-all orchestrated often in response to using a relief specialist who may only be effective against half of a platoon because his repertoire doesn't allow him to even be a complete pitcher.

    The irony is that post 278 really embodies the NL style much closer than it represents a caricature of the AL. Perhaps that's your point? You were mocking those who have argued so vehemently against the DH?
    I think it is time for a thread recap. The original issue was whether or not the NL should adopt the DH. I would like to point out that this change would eliminate a choice now available to fans. If the issue was directed at abolishing the DH in the AL, that would be something different.

    During this discussion some posters mentioned that they preferred DH-free baseball because of the greater complexity created in game contexts. Other posters responded critically to this assertion by arguing that the skill mismatches between pitcher vs. pitcher PAs led to a worse baseball experience than any game context could possibly compensate for.

    And so comes post # 278. This was a proposal that eliminated all game contexts while greatly increasing skill exhibition. This is the central principle. It is an extreme application of the above counter-argument. So the question is, if my proposal is not “logical,” why is there a problem with someone preferring DH-free baseball because of they do not want to diminish game complexity?

    Now on to your latest reply. First my post is not a “hyperbolic strawman.” I don’t think it even qualifies as hyperbole because no reality is being distorted or exaggerated. I would classify it as a mere absurdity. It is defiantly not a strawman argument because there was no attempt to represent the opponent’s perspective. If this statement does not apply to you: “For those of you obsessed with seeing more "the best versus the best" match ups,” I believe the logical thing would be to point out that is not your perspective or not to respond to the post at all. Arguing that nine versus nine baseball hasn’t existed in a century is a much better example of a strawman argument. And while you have your freshman communications textbook out, see if it qualifies as a red herring and non sequiter as well.

    Now to your claim that “the notion that the NL is superior because it is less specialized just isn't accurate.” This leads me to believe that you cannot separate your opinion from objective fact. Fundamentally, you have chosen a side that is almost impossible to win. Since this is a matter of preference, you will need to show why this choice for baseball fans should be eliminated. Tough sledding there.

    Through all this I think I have wasted my time in this discussion. I may be completely wrong about this, but I have come to believe your arguments actually have little to do with a passion for the game. They look like more of an attempt to be perceived as some kind of alpha intellect. I have a newborn and I am way behind on everything. I come to this board because I want to relax for a moment and enjoy baseball discussion focused on my favorite team. I will gladly debate with anyone with different opinions if they also love the game and the Reds. But I sense no such devotion in your posts. I start to feel I am in debate with no real point.

    So in sum- I concede. Whatever you thought we were arguing about, it looks like you were right. I was a fool to ever challenge your keen perspective.

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  19. #314
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    And so comes post # 278. This was a proposal that eliminated all game contexts while greatly increasing skill exhibition. This is the central principle. It is an extreme application of the above counter-argument. So the question is, if my proposal is not “logical,” why is there a problem with someone preferring DH-free baseball because of they do not want to diminish game complexity?
    First, who argued there was a problem with someone "liking DH-free baseball because they do not want to diminish game complexity"? If someone enjoys double switches, great! Just don't argue that the DH is baby ball because it allows incomplete players to play while also pontificating about the cerebral nature of the NL style that lets a guy hit who'll never see the field and letting a guy play the field who you never intend to let hit all as a way of compensating for letting a guy who has almost no chance of getting a hit take up a spot in the batting order. Dont argue that Al managers don't have to make many in game decisions despite changing pitchers more often. The NL style embraces fractional players.

    Second, "It is an extreme application of the above counter-argument." really answers your own question. The hypothetical you suggest is an extreme that no longer resembles a reasonable interpretation or extension of the counterargument. You made a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    Now on to your latest reply. First my post is not a “hyperbolic strawman.” I don’t think it even qualifies as hyperbole because no reality is being distorted or exaggerated. I would classify it as a mere absurdity. It is defiantly not a strawman argument because there was no attempt to represent the opponent’s perspective.
    If it wasn't meant to be an extension of an argument for the DH, then why do you qualify it as "an extreme application of the above counter-argument"?

    If an extreme application of view point made for affect isn't hyperbole then what is?

    But I'm willing to accept your clarification that it was actually an absurdity not meant to represent the perspective of fans that enjoy the AL style and move on. Hopefully, you can likewise gracefully allow that the original confusion regarding your point was reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    If this statement does not apply to you: “For those of you obsessed with seeing more "the best versus the best" match ups,” I believe the logical thing would be to point out that is not your perspective or not to respond to the post at all.
    I pretty clearly pointed out that such a hypothetical was not representative of the argument for the DH.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    Arguing that nine versus nine baseball hasn’t existed in a century is a much better example of a strawman argument.
    Actually no it's not. The NL has allowed the duties associated with a lineup spot to be fullfilled by multiple players for over a decade. A player can pitch and never hit. One can pinch hit and never play defense and even be lifted for a pinchrunner if he succesfully reaches. A player can play the field as a defensive replacement never meant to bat. That's not a strawman. Thats reality and it's also why the 10 on 10 vs 9 on 9 argument wasn't valid.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    And while you have your freshman communications textbook out, see if it qualifies as a red herring and non sequiter as well.
    Nope and nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    Now to your claim that “the notion that the NL is superior because it is less specialized just isn't accurate.” This leads me to believe that you cannot separate your opinion from objective fact. Fundamentally, you have chosen a side that is almost impossible to win. Since this is a matter of preference, you will need to show why this choice for baseball fans should be eliminated. Tough sledding there.
    I neither have to show that to argue the AL style of play is a valid one nor to argue that the notion of the NL being superior because it is less specialized just isn't accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    Through all this I think I have wasted my time in this discussion. I may be completely wrong about this, but I have come to believe your arguments actually have little to do with a passion for the game.
    You are completely wrong concerning my passion for the game. It's presumptuous to assume such a thing to begin with but on this point, this thread has been good discussion with the notably exception where a few specific posters have tried to ruin it with blatant personal attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    They look like more of an attempt to be perceived as some kind of alpha intellect. I have a newborn and I am way behind on everything. I come to this board because I want to relax for a moment and enjoy baseball discussion focused on my favorite team. I will gladly debate with anyone with different opinions if they also love the game and the Reds. But I sense no such devotion in your posts. I start to feel I am in debate with no real point.
    There really is no need for comments such as these.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  20. #315
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Actually no it's not. The NL has allowed the duties associated with a lineup spot to be fullfilled by multiple players for over a decade. A player can pitch and never hit. One can pinch hit and never play defense and even be lifted for a pinchrunner if he succesfully reaches. A player can play the field as a defensive replacement never meant to bat. That's not a strawman. Thats reality and it's also why the 10 on 10 vs 9 on 9 argument wasn't valid.
    Really twisting hard with this, aren't you? LOL! I will keep it simple just in case... how many names are on the umpire's lineup card AT ONE TIME in the NL and in the AL? Or how many guys are eligible to play but on the bench to start the game in the NL and in the AL. No fuzzy math as you attempted to display above. There are different numbers in each league. But you know that.

    No problem. Fonzie could not say he was wr-wrrr-wrrroo-wrroo-wrong either.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

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