Much of the strategy comes in the at-bats leading up to the pitcher's plate appearance. Come on now.
Is the manager going to let the pitcher hit or is he going to put in a pinch-hitter? Which pinch hitter? Will the other team react with a pitching change? Will the offense put on a bunt play or a hit-and-run? How about a pitch-out? Many different options are on the table, not just a routine sacrifice bunt play.
With the DH it is just another routine at-bat.
Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 03-12-2013 at 01:22 PM.
remdog (03-12-2013)
Last edited by jojo; 03-12-2013 at 01:24 PM.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
And the game just got 45 minutes longer as the manager made several trips to mound and three pitchers warmed up two of whom only have one pitch and are basically situational arms used to exploit platoon advantages, a paradigm hardly in keeping with the notion of a "complete baseball player".
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Longer game sounds good to me. If I have sat down to watch a game, which is about 95% of evenings in the summer, I am not in hurry to do something else. I always find it weird when people complain about game lengths. If a game is compelling by all means give me more time to spend watching it. If its not compelling I will stop watching it anyways. I believe Yankees-Red Sox always top list of longest games anyways. Cant blame that on pitchers batting.
Then why are American League games longer than National League games? Using a DH actually makes the games take longer: http://www.platoonadvantage.com/2012.../cee-angi.html
I think everyone would agreee that players who play both offense and defense are more complete ballplayers than those who play only offense or defense. That pretty much goes without saying, so I am not going to argue it with you. In the National League pitchers are often expected to bat, in the American League they don't bat. The conclusion is obvious.
bigredmechanism (03-13-2013)
Because the AL is a higher run scoring environment?
Lost in your argument about "complete" ballplayers is the fact that the style of baseball you are advocating creates a situation that glaringly exposes the lack of a pitcher's ability to hit thus creating an offensive black hole in the lineup.
Allowing a DH to bat for a pitcher transforms a severely flawed poistion in the lineup into a composite that is undeniably a more complete position than if a pitcher is forced to bat which ultimately makes the AL much closer to the ideal of fielding "complete baseball players" than the NL.
There are arguments for and against the DH but the notion that a DH isn't a complete ballplayer isn't a very compelling argument against the DH given what the NL does to the 9th spot in its lineups.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
I guess by your logic an NFL quarterback is a complete football player too.
Having a designated free throw shooter wouldn't make NBA Centers more complete basketball players either.
Having the DH doesn't make a pitcher a more complete ballplayer. The opposite is true without a doubt.
Many people will always look down with disdain upon the DH as a cop out that allows fat, non-athletic people to keep playing baseball despite the fact they aren't good enough to be complete ballplayers. That applies to both the hitters who can't field and the pitchers who can't hit or run the bases.
I agree with you 100%. I hate the DH. Players aside, I feel when the DH was adopted long ago it was a gimmick to get more people in seats because their will be more offense and home runs..wooo home runs.
Some baseball fans, like myself, love the style of NL baseball. Much more thinking involved. The idea of a defensive/pitching battle >>>>>> homerun derby any day. sorry im a fan of small ball/old school ball
Last edited by coachpipe; 03-12-2013 at 02:32 PM.
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OnBaseMachine (03-12-2013)
You're still looking at it in a vacuum. The pitcher hitting has ramifications for both sides throughout the entire game.
Since I moved to an AL city 6 years ago I have attended a grand total of one professional baseball game. Previously I lived in a city of one of the worst NL teams and, even though I was not a fan of that team, I attended 4-5 games a year. AL baseball bores me to tears.
Lets be completely honest and fair about my position. The pitcher's spot in the lineup is so unproductive that it can reasonably be termed a throw away PA. How the heck is that defensible (pun intended-that's the problem-the pitcher's at bat is far too easy to defend)? Pitchers are so horrible at hitting that replacing them with a competent major league hitter improves the asthetic of the game. The argument is that simple.
Reasonable people can disagree about the DH of course because this discussion is more like arguing about music than absolutes but the notion that DHs aren't complete players simply isn't a good argument against the DH. This is especially so because of the way typical DH PAs are divied up. Often players are rotated through the position on a given day to maximize at bats for other players and to allow favorable matchups (i.e. often players will split time between first, OF and DH depending upon the pitching match up etc). The DH presents different sets of managerial decisions than the NL situation. It doesn't reduce the thinking involved like some suggest. It both complicates and makes roster formulation much more interesting and dynamic.
Pitchers are such horrible hitters as a group relative to a major league average hitter that it makes little sense to allow them to bat if one is basing their argument about the DH upon composite skillsets. Likewise someone making such an argument also needs to voice equally strong condemnation for modern bullpen usage. The majority of bullpen arms are by definition pitchers who couldn't cut it as starters. They can't start or hit!!!! Oh the humanity! If one is serious about not letting incompete ballplayers play in the NL, they also need to start a movement to eliminate the bullpen. And, frankly, such a person probably wants to wretch at the notion that Dunn was ever a Red especially since ironically he is now playing his natural position.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
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