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Thread: The Reds & and the new DH debate

  1. #76
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I'd argue there isn't a more suspenseful time in a baseball game than the extra-inning NL tilt where double-switches and pinch-hits have left a team without any additional pitchers and they're forced to send a backup SS to the mound for an inning or two.

    It's like getting an entire bowl of marshmallows by random chance when you pour out your lucky charms.
    Oh and funny you should say this: I swear on my father's grave I bought a box of Lucky Charms that had 100% marsmallows. It was awful. You need the oats...trust me.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

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  3. #77
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It makes the position in the lineup a much more complete composite. That is true without a doubt.
    Two incompletes does not make a complete.

  4. #78
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Two incompletes does not make a complete.
    Exactly.

    A pitcher who can't hit is incomplete.

    Yours is the funniest argument I've heard.

    You argue for more skill and the result is less skill.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Two incompletes does not make a complete.
    Earl Weaver disagrees...sometimes two incompletes add up to greater than complete...
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #80
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Lets be completely honest and fair about my position. The pitcher's spot in the lineup is so unproductive that it can reasonably be termed a throw away PA. How the heck is that defensible (pun intended-that's the problem-the pitcher's at bat is far too easy to defend)? Pitchers are so horrible at hitting that replacing them with a competent major league hitter improves the asthetic of the game. The argument is that simple.

    Reasonable people can disagree about the DH of course because this discussion is more like arguing about music than absolutes but the notion that DHs aren't complete players simply isn't a good argument against the DH. This is especially so because of the way typical DH PAs are divied up. Often players are rotated through the position on a given day to maximize at bats for other players and to allow favorable matchups (i.e. often players will split time between first, OF and DH depending upon the pitching match up etc). The DH presents different sets of managerial decisions than the NL situation. It doesn't reduce the thinking involved like some suggest. It both complicates and makes roster formulation much more interesting and dynamic.

    Pitchers are such horrible hitters as a group relative to a major league average hitter that it makes little sense to allow them to bat if one is basing their argument about the DH upon composite skillsets. Likewise someone making such an argument also needs to voice equally strong condemnation for modern bullpen usage. The majority of bullpen arms are by definition pitchers who couldn't cut it as starters. They can't start or hit!!!! Oh the humanity! If one is serious about not letting incompete ballplayers play in the NL, they also need to start a movement to eliminate the bullpen. And, frankly, such a person probably wants to wretch at the notion that Dunn was ever a Red especially since ironically he is now playing his natural position.
    If you think the pitcher's slot is a throwaway PA then you don't watch much baseball. There is often more movement and communication amongst the defenders during a pitcher's at-bat than a slugger's at-bat. I can see how you would think a pitcher batting is boring if you don't understand what is going on during the event and leading up to it.

    The NL presents a varied set of managerial decisions. The AL prevents the need to make decisions.

    Adam Dunn as a Red actually played both offense and defense. As a White Sox he often only DHs. Clearly he was a more complete player as a Red and the more complete game in the NL served to expose his weaknesses as an all-around player. The AL lets weak defenders skate by whereas in the NL you have to have a well-rounded game to be successful.

    If you appreciate the strategy in baseball you enjoy NL games better. If you only enjoy pyrotechnics you may like the AL better. The AL is a stripped-down and dumbed-down version more akin to softball. The NL is a more cerebral game full of nuance and subterfuge, action and reaction, sign-flashing and sign-stealing, pitchouts, wheel plays and double-switches. Fundamentals are paramount. Want to throw a brushback pitch? Might want to be careful since you will be at the plate soon. It is checkers vs chess.

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  8. #81
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Exactly.

    A pitcher who can't hit is incomplete.

    Yours is the funniest argument I've heard.

    You argue for more skill and the result is less skill.
    What? I say a player who can play offense and defense is a real baseball player. It takes more skill to play both ways. Not less.

    A pitcher needs to be able to hit, that is my point. In the NL pitchers who can hit are better players than those who can't hit. In the AL there is no difference.

    LOOGYs are more common in the American League where a team can carry more pitchers that can only face one batter. In the NL, where pitching changes often come earlier in a game your pitchers need to face more than one batter more often. I don't see any occasion where the NL requires less skill than the AL. I don't think your ranting makes any sense.

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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    If you think the pitcher's slot is a throwaway PA then you don't watch much baseball. There is often more movement and communication amongst the defenders during a pitcher's at-bat than a slugger's at-bat. I can see how you would think a pitcher batting is boring if you don't understand what is going on during the event and leading up to it.
    You can assume I know a lot about baseball. I'll assume you weren't really trying to be that condescending.

    The NL presents a varied set of managerial decisions. The AL prevents the need to make decisions.
    That's your biased opinion that really mischaracterized the differences between styles of play.

    Adam Dunn as a Red actually played both offense and defense. As a White Sox he often only DHs. Clearly he was a more complete player as a Red and the more complete game in the NL served to expose his weaknesses as an all-around player. The AL lets weak defenders skate by whereas in the NL you have to have a well-rounded game to be successful.
    The AL refuses to allow extremely poor hitters get significant numbers of PAs. Basically it's a style that platoons an arm and a bat simultaneously.

    Adam Dunn as a Red just proves the NL is willing to play a DH in the field.

    If you appreciate the strategy in baseball you enjoy NL games better. If you only enjoy pyrotechnics you may like the AL better. The AL is a stripped-down and dumbed-down version more akin to softball. The NL is a more cerebral game full of nuance and subterfuge, action and reaction, sign-flashing and sign-stealing, pitchouts, wheel plays and double-switches. Fundamentals are paramount. Want to throw a brushback pitch? Might want to be careful since you will be at the plate soon. It is checkers vs chess.
    As commentary about the stylistic differences between the two leagues, this is mostly innacurate editorializing.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #83
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    What? I say a player who can play offense and defense is a real baseball player. It takes more skill to play both ways. Not less.
    You're arguing that letting a major league quality hitter fill a black hole in the line up is an inferior approach because DHs aren't complete players despite arguing that the superior approach is to allow even less complete players to hit. as arguments go against the DH this one has multiple problems.

    A pitcher needs to be able to hit, that is my point. In the NL pitchers who can hit are better players than those who can't hit. In the AL there is no difference.
    First this is an arbitrary condition you're applying that isn't close to consistent with MLB's view of pitchers and their development. To the extent they actually work on hitting, pitchers try to get better at making outs-by sacrificing an obvious nod to their inability to hit.

    But importantly, second, it's not even true. You know a pitcher who was a good hitter named Micah? He's not a pitcher anymore. He's fighting for his professional career by trying to play first base. Pitchers who have a repertoire that allows them to get both lefties and righties out are better players. If a pitcher can hit something akin to a replacement level replacement player (just very bad) that's rare gravy.

    LOOGYs are more common in the American League where a team can carry more pitchers that can only face one batter. In the NL, where pitching changes often come earlier in a game your pitchers need to face more than one batter more often. I don't see any occasion where the NL requires less skill than the AL. I don't think your ranting makes any sense.
    I'm confused. If an AL team has to waste a roster spot on a guy who can't play the field, where do they get all of this extra room to carry LOOGYs? The stuff about batters faced doesn't hold either. The numbers of appearances made by relievers lasting less than one inning are historically virtually identical between the two leagues ( don't believe me? www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/4275
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #84
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    What? I say a player who can play offense and defense is a real baseball player. It takes more skill to play both ways. Not less.

    A pitcher needs to be able to hit, that is my point. In the NL pitchers who can hit are better players than those who can't hit. In the AL there is no difference.

    LOOGYs are more common in the American League where a team can carry more pitchers that can only face one batter. In the NL, where pitching changes often come earlier in a game your pitchers need to face more than one batter more often. I don't see any occasion where the NL requires less skill than the AL. I don't think your ranting makes any sense.
    Yeah- that's the problem.

    Pitcher's can't hit.

    You are arguing they should stand up there and be pathetic for the sake of strategy.

    What sort of competition invites someone to be bad at something?

    Your point is to say well, the DH is bad because that slugger would be pretty bad in the field...so we shouldn't have that...

    And your answer is to make Tim Lincecum stand there with a bat in his hand.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

  12. #85
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Yeah- that's the problem.

    Pitcher's can't hit.

    You are arguing they should stand up there and be pathetic for the sake of strategy.

    What sort of competition invites someone to be bad at something?

    Your point is to say well, the DH is bad because that slugger would be pretty bad in the field...so we shouldn't have that...

    And your answer is to make Tim Lincecum stand there with a bat in his hand.
    No, my answer is to get players who can do both better than their adversaries can.

    Pitchers who can hit help their teams win. Hitters who can field help their teams win.

    The point of the competition is to invite players to be good at all aspects of the sport rather than allowing them to be bad at part of it without hurting their team.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 03-12-2013 at 07:19 PM.

  13. #86
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You're arguing that letting a major league quality hitter fill a black hole in the line up is an inferior approach because DHs aren't complete players despite arguing that the superior approach is to allow even less complete players to hit. as arguments go against the DH this one has multiple problems.



    First this is an arbitrary condition you're applying that isn't close to consistent with MLB's view of pitchers and their development. To the extent they actually work on hitting, pitchers try to get better at making outs-by sacrificing an obvious nod to their inability to hit.

    But importantly, second, it's not even true. You know a pitcher who was a good hitter named Micah? He's not a pitcher anymore. He's fighting for his professional career by trying to play first base. Pitchers who have a repertoire that allows them to get both lefties and righties out are better players. If a pitcher can hit something akin to a replacement level replacement player (just very bad) that's rare gravy.
    You are just trying to blow smoke. Anyone can see that a player who can play both offense and defense is a more complete player. It is so obvious I can't believe I have had to tell you several times now.

    A baseball player's success or failure is judged by how well he plays offense and defense better or worse than his adversaries. Both teams play both ways with the same rules. There is not a situation where one team gets to use the DH and the other has to have the pitcher bat. It is not a matter of comparing a pitcher's batting skills to a DH's batting skills. That is a false argument and nobody is arguing that point at all.

    If two pitcher's are equallly skilled at pitching, but one is better than the other at hitting which one is more likely to win? If two hitters are equally skilled at hitting but one is better than the other at fielding then which one is more likely to win? Obviously the more complete player is more likely to win. That is the nature of the sport of baseball.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 03-12-2013 at 07:23 PM.

  14. #87
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    You are just trying to blow smoke. Anyone can see that a player who can play both offense and defense is a more complete player. It is so obvious I can't believe I have had to tell you several times now.
    Pitchers can't "play offense." That's the point. Just because someone stands there with a bat in their hand does not mean they are a hitter.

    We shouldn't be comparing guys who hit .200 to guys who hit .180 and saying well, that's an advantage...

    My easy out pitcher hits better than your easier out pitcher is not really a competition.

    Competition celebrates proficiency.

    NL baseball celebrates whose worse hitter is a little better.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

  15. #88
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'm confused. If an AL team has to waste a roster spot on a guy who can't play the field, where do they get all of this extra room to carry LOOGYs? The stuff about batters faced doesn't hold either. The numbers of appearances made by relievers lasting less than one inning are historically virtually identical between the two leagues ( don't believe me? www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/4275
    Since AL teams don't have to use pinch-hitters or make strategic double-switches they have the luxury of using pitchers to face a single hitter purely for platoon splits much more often.

    That also results in more pitching changes during a defensive inning (rather than taking the pitcher out while his team is batting) and that is why AL games have been longer than NL games ever since the 70s.

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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    You are just trying to blow smoke. Anyone can see that a player who can play both offense and defense is a more complete player. It is so obvious I can't believe I have had to tell you several times now.

    A baseball player's success or failure is judged by how well he plays offense and defense better or worse than his adversaries. Both teams play both ways with the same rules. There is not a situation where one team gets to use the DH and the other has to have the pitcher bat. It is not a matter of comparing a pitcher's batting skills to a DH's batting skills. That is a false argument and nobody is arguing that point at all.

    If two pitcher's are equallly skilled at pitching, but one is better than the other at hitting which one is more likely to win? If two hitters are equally skilled at hitting but one is better than the other at fielding then which one is more likely to win? Obviously the more complete player is more likely to win. That is the nature of the sport of baseball.
    I'm trying to decide if you're doing this on purpose or if you're just so deep into your argument that you're losing sight of the light outside the rabbit hole.

    The issue isn't who is more valuable Matt Holliday or Adam Dunn because that answer is painfully obvious. The issue is that your argument against the DH is disjointed because the conclusion doesn't follow the premise. I don't know of a plainer way to articulate the point. You're actually making a case for the DH and don't realize it. You value complete players but are completely willing to allow a gaping talent disparity that exemplifies specialization to exist in the lineup because of a dogmatic rejection of specialized skill sets.

    Lets try to inject some perspective back into this discussion......

    What percentage of pitching staff decisions in the NL are made every season that hinged upon the pitcher's ability to hit? In other words, how often does pitcher X get added to an NL roster because he can hit better than pitcher Y?

    Again, there are arguments to made against the DH. Arguing pitchers need to hit because DHs aren't complete players just isn't one of them.
    Last edited by jojo; 03-12-2013 at 08:04 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  17. #90
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Since AL teams don't have to use pinch-hitters or make strategic double-switches they have the luxury of using pitchers to face a single hitter purely for platoon splits much more often.
    Then why are the numbers of appearances made by relievers lasting less than one inning virtually identical between the two leagues historically?

    BTW, I'm confused how one can simultaneously argue this:

    The NL presents a varied set of managerial decisions. The AL prevents the need to make decisions.
    and this:

    That also results in more pitching changes during a defensive inning (rather than taking the pitcher out while his team is batting) and that is why AL games have been longer than NL games ever since the 70s.
    Last edited by jojo; 03-12-2013 at 08:15 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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