"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
If you think the pitcher's slot is a throwaway PA then you don't watch much baseball. There is often more movement and communication amongst the defenders during a pitcher's at-bat than a slugger's at-bat. I can see how you would think a pitcher batting is boring if you don't understand what is going on during the event and leading up to it.
The NL presents a varied set of managerial decisions. The AL prevents the need to make decisions.
Adam Dunn as a Red actually played both offense and defense. As a White Sox he often only DHs. Clearly he was a more complete player as a Red and the more complete game in the NL served to expose his weaknesses as an all-around player. The AL lets weak defenders skate by whereas in the NL you have to have a well-rounded game to be successful.
If you appreciate the strategy in baseball you enjoy NL games better. If you only enjoy pyrotechnics you may like the AL better. The AL is a stripped-down and dumbed-down version more akin to softball. The NL is a more cerebral game full of nuance and subterfuge, action and reaction, sign-flashing and sign-stealing, pitchouts, wheel plays and double-switches. Fundamentals are paramount. Want to throw a brushback pitch? Might want to be careful since you will be at the plate soon. It is checkers vs chess.
bigredmechanism (03-13-2013),M2 (03-20-2013)
What? I say a player who can play offense and defense is a real baseball player. It takes more skill to play both ways. Not less.
A pitcher needs to be able to hit, that is my point. In the NL pitchers who can hit are better players than those who can't hit. In the AL there is no difference.
LOOGYs are more common in the American League where a team can carry more pitchers that can only face one batter. In the NL, where pitching changes often come earlier in a game your pitchers need to face more than one batter more often. I don't see any occasion where the NL requires less skill than the AL. I don't think your ranting makes any sense.
You can assume I know a lot about baseball. I'll assume you weren't really trying to be that condescending.
That's your biased opinion that really mischaracterized the differences between styles of play.The NL presents a varied set of managerial decisions. The AL prevents the need to make decisions.
The AL refuses to allow extremely poor hitters get significant numbers of PAs. Basically it's a style that platoons an arm and a bat simultaneously.Adam Dunn as a Red actually played both offense and defense. As a White Sox he often only DHs. Clearly he was a more complete player as a Red and the more complete game in the NL served to expose his weaknesses as an all-around player. The AL lets weak defenders skate by whereas in the NL you have to have a well-rounded game to be successful.
Adam Dunn as a Red just proves the NL is willing to play a DH in the field.
As commentary about the stylistic differences between the two leagues, this is mostly innacurate editorializing.If you appreciate the strategy in baseball you enjoy NL games better. If you only enjoy pyrotechnics you may like the AL better. The AL is a stripped-down and dumbed-down version more akin to softball. The NL is a more cerebral game full of nuance and subterfuge, action and reaction, sign-flashing and sign-stealing, pitchouts, wheel plays and double-switches. Fundamentals are paramount. Want to throw a brushback pitch? Might want to be careful since you will be at the plate soon. It is checkers vs chess.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
You're arguing that letting a major league quality hitter fill a black hole in the line up is an inferior approach because DHs aren't complete players despite arguing that the superior approach is to allow even less complete players to hit. as arguments go against the DH this one has multiple problems.
First this is an arbitrary condition you're applying that isn't close to consistent with MLB's view of pitchers and their development. To the extent they actually work on hitting, pitchers try to get better at making outs-by sacrificing an obvious nod to their inability to hit.A pitcher needs to be able to hit, that is my point. In the NL pitchers who can hit are better players than those who can't hit. In the AL there is no difference.
But importantly, second, it's not even true. You know a pitcher who was a good hitter named Micah? He's not a pitcher anymore. He's fighting for his professional career by trying to play first base. Pitchers who have a repertoire that allows them to get both lefties and righties out are better players. If a pitcher can hit something akin to a replacement level replacement player (just very bad) that's rare gravy.
I'm confused. If an AL team has to waste a roster spot on a guy who can't play the field, where do they get all of this extra room to carry LOOGYs? The stuff about batters faced doesn't hold either. The numbers of appearances made by relievers lasting less than one inning are historically virtually identical between the two leagues ( don't believe me? www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/4275LOOGYs are more common in the American League where a team can carry more pitchers that can only face one batter. In the NL, where pitching changes often come earlier in a game your pitchers need to face more than one batter more often. I don't see any occasion where the NL requires less skill than the AL. I don't think your ranting makes any sense.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Yeah- that's the problem.
Pitcher's can't hit.
You are arguing they should stand up there and be pathetic for the sake of strategy.
What sort of competition invites someone to be bad at something?
Your point is to say well, the DH is bad because that slugger would be pretty bad in the field...so we shouldn't have that...
And your answer is to make Tim Lincecum stand there with a bat in his hand.
No, my answer is to get players who can do both better than their adversaries can.
Pitchers who can hit help their teams win. Hitters who can field help their teams win.
The point of the competition is to invite players to be good at all aspects of the sport rather than allowing them to be bad at part of it without hurting their team.
Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 03-12-2013 at 07:19 PM.
You are just trying to blow smoke. Anyone can see that a player who can play both offense and defense is a more complete player. It is so obvious I can't believe I have had to tell you several times now.
A baseball player's success or failure is judged by how well he plays offense and defense better or worse than his adversaries. Both teams play both ways with the same rules. There is not a situation where one team gets to use the DH and the other has to have the pitcher bat. It is not a matter of comparing a pitcher's batting skills to a DH's batting skills. That is a false argument and nobody is arguing that point at all.
If two pitcher's are equallly skilled at pitching, but one is better than the other at hitting which one is more likely to win? If two hitters are equally skilled at hitting but one is better than the other at fielding then which one is more likely to win? Obviously the more complete player is more likely to win. That is the nature of the sport of baseball.
Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 03-12-2013 at 07:23 PM.
Pitchers can't "play offense." That's the point. Just because someone stands there with a bat in their hand does not mean they are a hitter.You are just trying to blow smoke. Anyone can see that a player who can play both offense and defense is a more complete player. It is so obvious I can't believe I have had to tell you several times now.
We shouldn't be comparing guys who hit .200 to guys who hit .180 and saying well, that's an advantage...
My easy out pitcher hits better than your easier out pitcher is not really a competition.
Competition celebrates proficiency.
NL baseball celebrates whose worse hitter is a little better.
Since AL teams don't have to use pinch-hitters or make strategic double-switches they have the luxury of using pitchers to face a single hitter purely for platoon splits much more often.
That also results in more pitching changes during a defensive inning (rather than taking the pitcher out while his team is batting) and that is why AL games have been longer than NL games ever since the 70s.
I'm trying to decide if you're doing this on purpose or if you're just so deep into your argument that you're losing sight of the light outside the rabbit hole.
The issue isn't who is more valuable Matt Holliday or Adam Dunn because that answer is painfully obvious. The issue is that your argument against the DH is disjointed because the conclusion doesn't follow the premise. I don't know of a plainer way to articulate the point. You're actually making a case for the DH and don't realize it. You value complete players but are completely willing to allow a gaping talent disparity that exemplifies specialization to exist in the lineup because of a dogmatic rejection of specialized skill sets.
Lets try to inject some perspective back into this discussion......
What percentage of pitching staff decisions in the NL are made every season that hinged upon the pitcher's ability to hit? In other words, how often does pitcher X get added to an NL roster because he can hit better than pitcher Y?
Again, there are arguments to made against the DH. Arguing pitchers need to hit because DHs aren't complete players just isn't one of them.
Last edited by jojo; 03-12-2013 at 08:04 PM.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Then why are the numbers of appearances made by relievers lasting less than one inning virtually identical between the two leagues historically?
BTW, I'm confused how one can simultaneously argue this:
and this:The NL presents a varied set of managerial decisions. The AL prevents the need to make decisions.
That also results in more pitching changes during a defensive inning (rather than taking the pitcher out while his team is batting) and that is why AL games have been longer than NL games ever since the 70s.
Last edited by jojo; 03-12-2013 at 08:15 PM.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
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