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Thread: The Reds & and the new DH debate

  1. #121
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    A big success for who? Players that are too old or not capable to play with a piece of leather on their non-throwing hand, but can still swing the stick. For the union rep? So you must think the DH in the NL will increase revenue?

    Finley was a proponent for a bit of time before the other owners approved it. He was also somewhat of a crackpot with some of his BASEBALL ideas and there is nothing weird about mentioning that. So was Bill Veeck. Some were good and some were downright silly. I hope that you will agree that for every marketing success there are a lot more failures. And for every person who likes the DH, there are as many (maybe more) who do not like it.

    How do you measure success relative to the DH? I am very curious. Not opinions about excitement and the like. Those are opinions like those who are excited to see a manager make decisions b/c a pitcher is due to bat. Pretty big success, you say. How is that measured?
    I can guarantee you if there wasn't a DH, the Red Sox would have not won in 2004. Ortiz was BOSS in the playoffs that year. I know it's just one example but it's the clearest example I can give at the top of my head as to where the DH has been successful. I also don't think Seattle would have had those great teams of the 90's and early 2000's without Edgar Martinez.
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  3. #122
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Also, the whole idea that there's an old guy playing there, withering away not being able to play defense, is not really the case now. More and more, the DH is a fluid position in the AL and there isn't a set player in the DH like there was maybe 20 years ago. You might see Trumbo DHing one night and Pujols the next. The Yankees have used a roving DH for years now. There are few Billy Butlers left on American League teams and now it's more "lets give this guy a day off on defense".
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  4. #123
    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    When I read the thread topic, I figured this was the source of the rumor was based on.

    On this week's Sunday Morning Sports Talk show on WLW, Ken Broo had a guest from Baseball Prospectus. I didn't catch the guest's name. This BP writer firmly believes that this first season with daily interleague baseball will lead to a great epiphany that the National League needs the DH. He expects that TPTB will be inspired to adopt the DH across the game within a season or two.
    /r/reds

  5. #124
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Unassisted View Post
    When I read the thread topic, I figured this was the source of the rumor was based on.

    On this week's Sunday Morning Sports Talk show on WLW, Ken Broo had a guest from Baseball Prospectus. I didn't catch the guest's name. This BP writer firmly believes that this first season with daily interleague baseball will lead to a great epiphany that the National League needs the DH. He expects that TPTB will be inspired to adopt the DH across the game within a season or two.
    I agree with him on this. I think it will not only be an epiphany for NL fans but fans of AL teams who are at a disadvantage when coming into NL parks. At least I think a major discussion will start to take place.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  6. #125
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    A big success for who? Players that are too old or not capable to play with a piece of leather on their non-throwing hand, but can still swing the stick. For the union rep? So you must think the DH in the NL will increase revenue?

    Finley was a proponent for a bit of time before the other owners approved it. He was also somewhat of a crackpot with some of his BASEBALL ideas and there is nothing weird about mentioning that. So was Bill Veeck. Some were good and some were downright silly. I hope that you will agree that for every marketing success there are a lot more failures. And for every person who likes the DH, there are as many (maybe more) who do not like it.

    How do you measure success relative to the DH? I am very curious. Not opinions about excitement and the like. Those are opinions like those who are excited to see a manager make decisions b/c a pitcher is due to bat. Pretty big success, you say. How is that measured?
    Lets measure success using your own variables:

    Amd it was only implemented in the AL b/c they were lacking in attendance and scoring compared to the NL.
    It's pretty evident that the DH has increased run scoring and attendance in the AL. A couple of economists looked at this issue in 1990 (Domazlicky and Kerr, 1990 The American Economist 34:62-68) and estimated the impact of adding the DH to translate into 12.8% more runs and 13.4% greater attendance for the AL.

    Here's snap shot of "a day in the life" of mlb in 1972 (pre-DH) and last season:

    Code:
    	        Attendance		
    	    AL	            NL	         %
    1972	  953,212	1,294,144	74%
    2012	2,438,828	2,592,218	94%
    	  Runs/game		
    	 AL	 NL	 %
    1972	3.47	3.91	74%
    2012	4.54	4.22	108%
    The DH has pretty much closed the historic attendance disparity between the two leagues and has opened a scoring disparity in the AL's favor. If the DH was implemented in order to increase run scoring and attendance compared to the NL, then it certainly looks to have worked.

    I'd guess that implementing the DH in the NL ultimately would increase revenue.
    Last edited by jojo; 03-13-2013 at 05:42 PM.
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  7. #126
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    I see the DH being like the "farmer's hand" rule in Euchre. Many have adopted it, but it's still a bunch of garbage to me, and I'd like to play without it.

    I find it interesting that DH proponents will whine when playing in an NL park, but when an NL team visits an AL park, not having someone bat for the pitcher seems like a big treat. An "Okay, we'll play by your rules since we're here" type of mentality. But their stance on the DH doesn't change. Nor should it. There is plenty of pride in not having a DH in the lineup, especially when it's backed up...

    The NL is 15-31 in World Series Titles when a DH was used.

    So the NL plays a more difficult game and can still win it all. I can see how a firm opinion of anti-DH is hard to sway. Introducing the DH to the NL would castrate the game. I'd still watch, but with a broken heart.
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  8. #127
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRedLegger View Post
    I see the DH being like the "farmer's hand" rule in Euchre. Many have adopted it, but it's still a bunch of garbage to me, and I'd like to play without it.

    I find it interesting that DH proponents will whine when playing in an NL park, but when an NL team visits an AL park, not having someone bat for the pitcher seems like a big treat. An "Okay, we'll play by your rules since we're here" type of mentality. But their stance on the DH doesn't change. Nor should it. There is plenty of pride in not having a DH in the lineup, especially when it's backed up...

    The NL is 15-31 in World Series Titles when a DH was used.

    So the NL plays a more difficult game and can still win it all.
    I can see how a firm opinion of anti-DH is hard to sway. Introducing the DH to the NL would castrate the game. I'd still watch, but with a broken heart.
    While that record is not necessarily primarily due to the DH rule, I sure wouldn't use that record as support for the NL holding their own despite the DH. That's 1962 Mets territory as a winning percentage.
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  9. #128
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    While that record is not necessarily primarily due to the DH rule, I sure wouldn't use that record as support for the NL holding their own despite the DH. That's 1962 Mets territory as a winning percentage.
    The NL is 13-27 in WS that the Yankees played too

  10. #129
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Unassisted View Post
    When I read the thread topic, I figured this was the source of the rumor was based on.

    On this week's Sunday Morning Sports Talk show on WLW, Ken Broo had a guest from Baseball Prospectus. I didn't catch the guest's name. This BP writer firmly believes that this first season with daily interleague baseball will lead to a great epiphany that the National League needs the DH. He expects that TPTB will be inspired to adopt the DH across the game within a season or two.
    Not really following the logic. Interleague play has presented an ample opportunity for that epiphany, yet here we are.
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  11. #130
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's pretty evident that the DH has increased run scoring and attendance in the AL. A couple of economists looked at this issue in 1990 (Domazlicky and Kerr, 1990 The American Economist 34:62-68) and estimated the impact of adding the DH to translate into 12.8% more runs and 13.4% greater attendance for the AL.

    The DH has pretty much closed the historic attendance disparity between the two leagues and has opened a scoring disparity in the AL's favor. If the DH was implemented in order to increase run scoring and attendance compared to the NL, then it certainly looks to have worked.

    I'd guess that implementing the DH in the NL ultimately would increase revenue.
    Most of us here love stats and I think it is safe to assume you do as well. I believe the 12.8% more runs, but how can 13.4% attendance be attributed to the DH? I would love to see the facts that prove this 13.4% attendance boost that is relative to the DH. I will Google the study you mention. Of course you said "estimated"... like Calgon gets dishes "virtually" spot-free.

    I can argue that a good economy during the 1980s helped attendance. The 3-in-a-row and personable A's might have helped. Those memorable 77-78 Yanks and Mr. October. Perhaps the Cable TV thing (TBS, WGN, ESPN, etc) might have helped interest/attendance.

    The scoring now does favor the AL. As the pitching now favors the NL, right? And as there is always a thick line drawn between the two sides of this argument, it leads me to ask: does the really knowledgable (not so much passionate) fan appreciate more scoring or better pitching? I do not know. I only know that I like my team to score lots of runs and the opposing team to score none lol. I am selfish like that.

    One more question. Not sure how much you care for basketball (b-ball), but you are sharp. Why not have a designated free throw shooter in b-ball? Say any time a team has a free throw they can substitute in their DFT (desig. free thrower) for the person at the line? Scoring is sexy and increases attendance and revenue. Why not?
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

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  13. #131
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Part of the DH emerging was to prolong superstars careers, prior to it most players didn't make it past 36 as a regular. The 1st season of the DH saw players like Kaline getting more ABs and then Aaron in 74/75

    More abs for those guys means more jack in payroll too

    That's an epiphany in itself

  14. #132
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    DH to the NL would be just another in the long line of unnecessary gimmicks to be implemented while the sacred game of baseball has been run by a used car salesman.

    I'm an assistant coach on my 9 year old daughter's softball team. At this age, there is minimal correlation between the girls who can occasionally pitch a strike and the girls who can put the ball in play. But you know what? The pitchers hit.

    If 9 year old girls can do it, grown men should too.

  15. #133
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by 15fan View Post
    DH to the NL would be just another in the long line of unnecessary gimmicks to be implemented while the sacred game of baseball has been run by a used car salesman.

    I'm an assistant coach on my 9 year old daughter's softball team. At this age, there is minimal correlation between the girls who can occasionally pitch a strike and the girls who can put the ball in play. But you know what? The pitchers hit.

    If 9 year old girls can do it, grown men should too.
    Grown men who hit like 9 year old girls can't actually hit though.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  16. #134
    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Not really following the logic. Interleague play has presented an ample opportunity for that epiphany, yet here we are.
    But his point was that the concentrated doses of it in May and June were such a novelty that this level of introspection wasn't happening. His point was that having it occur continuously from April-October would cause the shift in thinking.

    Not saying I agree with the premise either, but this guy Broo interviewed was convinced.
    /r/reds

  17. #135
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    Re: The Reds & and the new DH debate

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Ive repeatedly said that the NL and AL styles present different SETS of managerial decisions. If you're truly worried about accurate contrasts, you need to question those who argue the AL style just allows the manager to sit on his hands.

    Assuming you mean in-game decisions, can you give an example of a managerial decision in an AL game that isn't also present in an NL game? I'm not trying to be snarky, just trying to see the AL side of this argument and I'm having a hard time coming up with one myself. And I hope you agree that saying pinch hitting or pinch running for the DH would be a complete cop out.


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