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Thread: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

  1. #256
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It makes as much sense as Mike Leake gaining a bunch of velocity while increasing his command of pitches he has learned to throw with much more movement.
    You asked for someone to describe a way that leake could improve.

    They did.

    You have now mocked them for doing so.

    I love ya Jo, but not your best work if your intention was to provide a thought provoking discussion.

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  4. #257
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    There's an article from the last few seasons where Leake is quoted as saying that he forces himself to "slow down" his fastball to generate more movement, the implication being that his pitches straighten out as he works into the 90s.

    I think Leake has to be a soft-tosser in order to survive -- which pretty much caps his growth at #5/swingman level.
    It's a bit of an exaggeration to call a guy working in the low 90s a "soft tosser."

    Kirk Saarloos -- definite soft tosser.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It makes as much sense as Mike Leake gaining a bunch of velocity while increasing his command of pitches he has learned to throw with much more movement.
    Are you trying to be obtuse?

    C'mon, man. He has the velocity in his hip pocket-- he's just chosen not to use it in past years in order to give more movement to his pitches. (There are reports of this pretty much wherever you want to look in the net.) It's more than possible that, as he ages, he will learn how to throw with more movement AND more velocity.
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 03-29-2013 at 07:20 AM.
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  6. #259
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    You asked for someone to describe a way that leake could improve.

    They did.

    You have now mocked them for doing so.

    I love ya Jo, but not your best work if your intention was to provide a thought provoking discussion.
    How often in the history of pitching has a pitcher gained command and movement by throwing harder? It's counterintuitive to argue that a major league starting pitcher is likely to undergo that transformation successfully. That was the point. No one is arguing that they don't want it to happen. It's just that wanting it to happen doesn't make it likely to....this is a belly that one should need to poke twice before accepting as reality.
    Last edited by jojo; 03-29-2013 at 07:43 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  7. #260
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Are you trying to be obtuse?

    C'mon, man. He has the velocity in his hip pocket-- he's just chosen not to use it in past years in order to give more movement to his pitches. (There are reports of this pretty much wherever you want to look in the net.) It's more than possible that, as he ages, he will learn how to throw with more movement AND more velocity.
    What you're describing would be a rare transformation.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #261
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    It's a bit of an exaggeration to call a guy working in the low 90s a "soft tosser."

    Kirk Saarloos -- definite soft tosser.
    Amusingly enough, Mike Leake's fastball (career average FB of 89.1MPH) is actually closer to Kirk Saarloos (85.6 MPH) than it is to Johnny Cueto (93 MPH).
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Aroldis Chapman > Mike Leake in every aspect of the game on the mound. Leake is a decent hitter.
    You actually don't know that as "starting pitchers". You can speculate all you want, but until Chapman actually pitches as a starter for a full season, we don't "know" how he will do.

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  11. #263
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    I'm not sure why it has to be Chapman > Leake. I guess people are going to take out their miffed frustration on Mike Leake all season. I hope Mike Leake has a great year for the Reds. If Chapman was starting, I would wish the same for him. I guess if Leake fails, the soap box will be a proud place to crow for his detractors.
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  13. #264
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    I'm not sure why it has to be Chapman > Leake. I guess people are going to take out their miffed frustration on Mike Leake all season. I hope Mike Leake has a great year for the Reds. If Chapman was starting, I would wish the same for him. I guess if Leake fails, the soap box will be a proud place to crow for his detractors.
    I'd like to at least make the record clear that I've been in favor of dumping Mike Leake for a long time -- Chapman has nothing to do with my belief that Mike Leake should be replaced by a better pitcher.
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    What you're describing would be a rare transformation.
    We've only been able to track such information for a few years, so to be honest, we have no idea how rare it is. I have no idea if Leake has been able to do this, but we really can't use history to discount it, when there really is no history to look at.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I'd like to at least make the record clear that I've been in favor of dumping Mike Leake for a long time -- Chapman has nothing to do with my belief that Mike Leake should be replaced by a better pitcher.
    I can't imagine why anyone would have wanted to dump Leake prior to last season. His rookie year in 2010 was a great success and in 2011 he was the second best pitcher on the Reds behind Johnny Cueto. On top of all that, he was being paid peanuts, freeing the Reds up to spend money elsewhere.

    Unless 'a long time' is measured in months, I don't see how anyone could have wanted to get rid of Leake for 'a long time'.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    We've only been able to track such information for a few years, so to be honest, we have no idea how rare it is. I have no idea if Leake has been able to do this, but we really can't use history to discount it, when there really is no history to look at.
    A general understanding of pitcher development indicates the transformation suggested is swimming against the current.
    Last edited by jojo; 03-29-2013 at 11:09 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve4192 View Post
    I can't imagine why anyone would have wanted to dump Leake prior to last season. His rookie year in 2010 was a great success and in 2011 he was the second best pitcher on the Reds behind Johnny Cueto. On top of all that, he was being paid peanuts, freeing the Reds up to spend money elsewhere.

    Unless 'a long time' is measured in months, I don't see how anyone could have wanted to get rid of Leake for 'a long time'.
    Leake is an unmigated success. He's a first round draft pick that has contributed to the major league club for several seasons.

    That's a different thing than arguing he will become a TOR arm.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Leake is an unmigated success. He's a first round draft pick that has contributed to the major league club for several seasons.

    That's a different thing than arguing he will become a TOR arm.
    I agree.

    I think it is highly unlikely that he becomes a TOR arm (though anything is possible I suppose), but I think there is a good chance he develops into a quality MOR arm. Regardless, he is certainly not a guy who should be discarded nor does he deserve all the scorn that heaped upon him.

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    Re: Buster Olney says scouts are raving about Mike Leake

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    What you're describing would be a rare transformation.
    Would it?

    I'd argue that a whole host of pitchers continually add and subtract mph from their fastballs (and other offerings) and are in constant tinker mode, searching for the right mix of mph and movement.

    Leake has, by almost all accounts, an extra tick of speed he hasn't used yet in the majors. So far, he's gotten by with the same old, same old-- lots of movement, less speed. A control pitcher's arsenal without great control.

    It's not rare at all to think he could add some of those mph back into his fastball to both straighten out his wayward command and to miss more bats.
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