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Thread: Greatest individual season?

  1. #1
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Greatest individual season?

    I saw a blurb in the paper about a week ago about a season Barry Bonds had. It got me to thinking, is Bonds 2004 season this the greatest offensive season ever?

    .362/.609/.812 OPS 1.422 OPS+263 45 HR's.

    Joey Votto's best OBP season was below .500, Pujols' highest was .462. Barry Bonds put up a good slugging number for an OBP. Acknowledging he was on roids along with many others, the guy made an out less that 40% of the time and managed to hit 45 HRs in one of the most pitcher friendly ball park in the game.

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    I like 1921 Babe Ruth, mostly because it really blew the doors off the game a year after they claimed his 1920 season was a one time deal

    .378/.512/.846 59 HR's 171 RBIs, 177 RS - NO IBB - 109 EBH

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I saw a blurb in the paper about a week ago about a season Barry Bonds had. It got me to thinking, is Bonds 2004 season this the greatest offensive season ever?

    .362/.609/.812 OPS 1.422 OPS+263 45 HR's.

    Joey Votto's best OBP season was below .500, Pujols' highest was .462. Barry Bonds put up a good slugging number for an OBP. Acknowledging he was on roids along with many others, the guy made an out less that 40% of the time and managed to hit 45 HRs in one of the most pitcher friendly ball park in the game.
    That season you mentioned, according to OPS+ (OPS, adjusted for the league and ballparks you play in throughout the season - with 100 being average), wasn't even his best. In 2002, his .370/.582/.799 line with a 268 OPS+ was better. It was the best OPS+ season in history. Bonds also has the 2nd and 3rd best OPS+ seasons before Fred Dunlap in 1884 chimes in. Ruth follows with spots 5-7.

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    OlafTheBlack Dan's Avatar
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    How about Ted Williams, pre-steroid era:

    Year AVG OBP SLG OPS OPS+
    1941 .406 .553 .735 1.287 235
    1957 .388 .526 .731 1.257 233
    Sabermetrics can be boiled down to this simple truism: A batter's goal is to extend the inning. Extend enough innings and you're going to score runs. Extend more innings than your opponent and you're going to score more runs than him.

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    That season you mentioned, according to OPS+ (OPS, adjusted for the league and ballparks you play in throughout the season - with 100 being average), wasn't even his best. In 2002, his .370/.582/.799 line with a 268 OPS+ was better. It was the best OPS+ season in history. Bonds also has the 2nd and 3rd best OPS+ seasons before Fred Dunlap in 1884 chimes in. Ruth follows with spots 5-7.
    I guess I didn't look closely enough to find that 2002 season. But its amazing to me that a guy can get on base over 60% of the time. PED's or not, what Bonds did in those later years is absolutely phenomenal.

  8. #6
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Hack Wilsons 1930 season is extremely underrated.

    .356/.454/.723/1.177

    Say what you will about the rbi but 191?!!!!
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 03-18-2013 at 02:50 PM.

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    Hack Wilsons 1930 season is extremely underrated.

    .356/.354/.723/1.177

    Say what you will about the rbi but 19?!!!!
    Biggest offensive season ever MLB as a whole - .296/ .356/.434/.790

    It's a great season, but against the average it loses luster

    Code:
    SLG
    1    Hack Wilson         .723
    2    Chuck Klein         .687
    3    Babe Herman         .678
    4    Chick Hafey         .652
    5    Gabby Hartnett      .630
    6    Bill Terry          .619
    7    Wally Berger        .614
    8    Lefty O'Doul        .604
    9    Mel Ott             .578
    10   Harry Heilmann      .577

  10. #8
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Biggest offensive season ever MLB as a whole - .296/ .356/.434/.790

    It's a great season, but against the average it loses luster

    Code:
    SLG
    1    Hack Wilson         .723
    2    Chuck Klein         .687
    3    Babe Herman         .678
    4    Chick Hafey         .652
    5    Gabby Hartnett      .630
    6    Bill Terry          .619
    7    Wally Berger        .614
    8    Lefty O'Doul        .604
    9    Mel Ott             .578
    10   Harry Heilmann      .577
    The question is not what is the greatest season ever in comparison to what the other players in the league were doing. Unless they can determine the balls were wound tighter in 1930, or bats were harder in 1930 i dont think it really matters what the league average says. In fact it may help Wilson's case. In the year where so many were having MVP seasons his stood head and shoulders above the rest.

    If how good the season is relative to compettitors is what we are looking at then Ruth's early Yankee seasons should win hands down.

    I would also like to nominate Bob Gibson's 1968 season:
    22-9, ERA of 1.12, 13 shutouts, 28 Complete games, 304.2 IP and only 198 hits, 268 k's, ERA+ 258, WHIP .853.

    Accolades: MVP, Cy Young Award, All-Star, Gold Glove

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    The question is not what is the greatest season ever in comparison to what the other players in the league were doing. Unless they can determine the balls were wound tighter in 1930, or bats were harder in 1930 i dont think it really matters what the league average says. In fact it may help Wilson's case. In the year where so many were having MVP seasons his stood head and shoulders above the rest.

    If how good the season is relative to compettitors is what we are looking at then Ruth's early Yankee seasons should win hands down.

    I would also like to nominate Bob Gibson's 1968 season:
    22-9, ERA of 1.12, 13 shutouts, 28 Complete games, 304.2 IP and only 198 hits, 268 k's, ERA+ 258, WHIP .853.

    Accolades: MVP, Cy Young Award, All-Star, Gold Glove
    1930 has already been called out as having a lively ball wound with special Australian wool, they changed it over the winter.

    The whole season screams crazy

    • The National League as a whole has a 20th-Century record .303 BA and .448 SA.
    • The American League posts a loop record .421 SA.
    • The Cards score a National League record 1,004 runs.
    • All eight Cardinals regulars hit .300 or better.
    • Cincinnati's Hod Ford is the only National League regular to hit below .250.
    • The Cubs slug a major league record .481.
    • The Giants hit a major league record .319.
    • The Senators have a staff ERA of 3.96 and are the only Major League Baseball team with an ERA below 4.00.


    1968 is pitching's answer to 1930

  12. #10
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    1930 has already been called out as having a lively ball wound with special Australian wool, they changed it over the winter.

    The whole season screams crazy

    • The National League as a whole has a 20th-Century record .303 BA and .448 SA.
    • The American League posts a loop record .421 SA.
    • The Cards score a National League record 1,004 runs.
    • All eight Cardinals regulars hit .300 or better.
    • Cincinnati's Hod Ford is the only National League regular to hit below .250.
    • The Cubs slug a major league record .481.
    • The Giants hit a major league record .319.
    • The Senators have a staff ERA of 3.96 and are the only Major League Baseball team with an ERA below 4.00.


    1968 is pitching's answer to 1930
    See. You answered my question. The ball was wound tighter. I did not know that. I also knew that was how you were going to respond to my suggestion of Gibson's 1968 season. Was the ball wound softer in 1968? Were the bats thinner or made of an experimental wood?
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 03-18-2013 at 03:02 PM.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    The question is not what is the greatest season ever in comparison to what the other players in the league were doing. Unless they can determine the balls were wound tighter in 1930, or bats were harder in 1930 i dont think it really matters what the league average says. In fact it may help Wilson's case. In the year where so many were having MVP seasons his stood head and shoulders above the rest.

    If how good the season is relative to compettitors is what we are looking at then Ruth's early Yankee seasons should win hands down.

    I would also like to nominate Bob Gibson's 1968 season:
    22-9, ERA of 1.12, 13 shutouts, 28 Complete games, 304.2 IP and only 198 hits, 268 k's, ERA+ 258, WHIP .853.

    Accolades: MVP, Cy Young Award, All-Star, Gold Glove
    Relative to the competitors, Bonds 2002 was still better than anyone in the history of the game.

    On the pitching side of things, things get murkier, but I still say that what Pedro Martinez did in 2000 was the most incredible pitching performance ever. Height of the steroid era, he posted a 1.74 ERA in a hitter friendly park with a 0.74 WHIP, 128 hits, 284 strikeouts and 32 walks in 217 innings (I will admit, the innings total does work against him). That 1.74 ERA led the American League. The guy who finished in second place? Roger Clemens, who posted a 3.70 ERA. His ERA+ of 291 is second only to Tim Keefe in 1880 (in just 12 games).

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    See. You answered my question. The ball was wound tighter. I did not know that. I also knew that was how you were going to respond to my suggestion or Gibson's 1968 season. Was the ball wound softer in 1968? Were the bats thinner or made of an experimental wood?
    The mound was higher and the strike zone had been adjusted in 1962, add in the advent of some new stadiums (Dodgers, Astrodome, Busch to name three) and the environment was ripe for pitching to take control of the game.

    1969, the mound was lowered and the offense adjusted.

  15. #13
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Relative to the competitors, Bonds 2002 was still better than anyone in the history of the game.

    On the pitching side of things, things get murkier, but I still say that what Pedro Martinez did in 2000 was the most incredible pitching performance ever. Height of the steroid era, he posted a 1.74 ERA in a hitter friendly park with a 0.74 WHIP, 128 hits, 284 strikeouts and 32 walks in 217 innings (I will admit, the innings total does work against him). That 1.74 ERA led the American League. The guy who finished in second place? Roger Clemens, who posted a 3.70 ERA. His ERA+ of 291 is second only to Tim Keefe in 1880 (in just 12 games).
    Pedro's 1999-2001 is probably the most dominant 3 year stretch in history for a pitcher. I think the debate would be between pedros late 90's early 2000's and Koufax's mid 60's

  16. #14
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    The mound was higher and the strike zone had been adjusted in 1962, add in the advent of some new stadiums (Dodgers, Astrodome, Busch to name three) and the environment was ripe for pitching to take control of the game.

    1969, the mound was lowered and the offense adjusted.
    Well then because of the mound we should never try to compare pitchers from before and after 1968? You got me with how the ball was not wound as tight in 1930. While i'll agree that the stadiums were tougher for HRs i don't believe those factors are enough to discount the things done by Gibson, Marichal, Jenkins and the like.

    I agree with you that the game has shifted in the favor of the batter over the years. But that doesn't mean i'm ready to discredit what those baseball immortals did.
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 03-18-2013 at 03:15 PM.

  17. #15
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Greatest individual season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    Well then because of the mound we should never try to compare pitchers from before and after 1968? You got me with how the ball was not wound as tight in 1930. While i'll agree that the stadiums were tougher for HRs i don't believe those factors are enough to discount the things done by Gibson, Marichal, Jenkins and the like.
    It matters, each era has areas that increase or decrease offense, it involves stuff as small as a mound change or making the 1st 2 fouls a strike. It's been going on for over a 130 years.

    Here's a good piece on the effect the teams felt when they dropped the mound (which didn't exist before the 1890'sand wasn't standardized until the 1950's)

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...2211/index.htm


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