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Thread: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

  1. #181
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    They shouldn't, but it is tradition because once upon a time when teams weren't raking in millions of dollars, it made sense to do that. Those days are long gone though.

    I would much rather the schools just pay the kids $400,000 a year to play and have the kid have to pay tuition out of his pocket.
    Academic scholarships have been around long before sports. Universities weren't founded on the principle of "let's make a bunch of money educating people." They were founded on the principle of bringing together scholars and students to advance higher learning under the premise of academic freedom. Before universities, the only people who had access to higher learning were the clergy and the nobility. Universities allowed scholars and students to seek knowledge free from the control of the church and the empire. This in turn lead to the Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment, during which time philosophers free from control of church and state came up with many of the concepts that influenced the Founding Fathers of the US. In the history of Univerities, sports is a recent development, and something unheard of in many other countries. Making universities available only to those who can pay will result in a decline in the advancement in higher learning and an increase in the stratification of society.

    By your logic, I suppose high schools shouldn't have sports programs either, since those don't make any money. All sports should only be offered by organizations that can generate a profit to justify their existence.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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  4. #182
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Of course the school thinks its great. They are the ones raking in the money and seeing the benefit from it.

    If you worked at a place that had a very small number of employees (football/basketball) who were responsible for 90% of the money generated by the entire company (athletic department), while a majority of the employees (all other athletics) lost the company money, wouldn't you think that the guys generating the revenue should be getting some raises and the guys not making the company any money would be sent packing?
    Last I looked, students weren't considered employees. Actually, if push came to shove, I suppose you could consider college football and basketball a form of unpaid internship, allowing athletes to gain experience before starting their pro careers.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  5. #183
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Last I looked, students weren't considered employees. Actually, if push came to shove, I suppose you could consider college football and basketball a form of unpaid internship, allowing athletes to gain experience before starting their pro careers.
    Students that make the school millions of dollars should be considered employees. The law, as we saw recently with the whole Black Swan lawsuit, is very specific of what an unpaid, or even paid intern is and isn't. Athletes don't qualify as such.

    Maybe the field hockey team shouldn't be considered an employee. They aren't bringing the school any money. But the basketball team? The football team? Another team where people show up in large enough numbers to make money? Yeah, they should considered employees.

    Let's think about it this way. In what way is it fair and reasonable that the field hockey or lacrosse team gets the same benefits from the school that the football team does that creates profit of $50M?

    At the end of the day, I simply can't grasp the rationality of anyone who thinks the field hockey team player and the football player at Ohio State are worth the same and should be compensated in the same manner.

  6. #184
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    What is Braxton Miller currently getting for playing in front of 100,000 people? First, the "scholarship" is a negligible cost for the school. The "benefits" than the players get are simply the cost of doing business and keeping the cartel running. You can't count that as part of their compensation. It would be like claiming that the Mail Truck and uniform are part of the mail man's compensation. So, he isn't exactly getting a lot for all of that exposure right now.

    Also, don't credit the university for giving the players exposure. The professional leagues would find a way to find the talent. The sports that don't filter through the college system have no problem identifying talent.

    Finally, I don't understand the argument that paying the players will create some sort of competitive imbalance. The top ten grossing programs are perennial top 10 football programs already.
    I agree with you completely.

    Thing is, the schools are still getting their tuition for scholarships. People talk about a "free" education, but it's not free. The athletic departments are still paying the school for the cost of tuition for each scholarship. Granted, there are some athletic departments that are not entirely self-sufficient, as some either receive money from the general funds or state sponsorship. Regardless, in most cases, the scholarships are being paid for by a third party.

    I actually don't think this would be a big deal. The NCAA could create a clearinghouse where athletes can register their earnings or share of marketing/advertising rights. At the end of expiration of their eligibility or a designated period thereof, they could receie a prorated share of all monies earned during their time on campus. This would allow the NCAA and member institutions to somewhat regulate where the money is coming from; give the athletes their fair share of the pie; but at the same time maintain the focus on being a "student-athlete" while on campus.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Students that make the school millions of dollars should be considered employees. The law, as we saw recently with the whole Black Swan lawsuit, is very specific of what an unpaid, or even paid intern is and isn't. Athletes don't qualify as such.

    Maybe the field hockey team shouldn't be considered an employee. They aren't bringing the school any money. But the basketball team? The football team? Another team where people show up in large enough numbers to make money? Yeah, they should considered employees.

    Let's think about it this way. In what way is it fair and reasonable that the field hockey or lacrosse team gets the same benefits from the school that the football team does that creates profit of $50M?

    At the end of the day, I simply can't grasp the rationality of anyone who thinks the field hockey team player and the football player at Ohio State are worth the same and should be compensated in the same manner.
    Equal protection clause of the US Constitution.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  9. #186
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Equal protection clause of the US Constitution.
    Then someone needs to sue the NCAA so athletes can become employees, so just like in the real world, they can be "paid" what they are actually worth because in no world is the field hockey team as valuable to the school as the football or basketball team, no matter how good that field hockey team is or how bad the other two teams are. It's a joke.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    A lot of places the field hockey team is worth more. Well, at least at those places field hockey costs the school less than football does. Football is expensive.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Whatever will bring back college basketball for playstation..im for that one

  12. #189
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Then someone needs to sue the NCAA so athletes can become employees, so just like in the real world, they can be "paid" what they are actually worth because in no world is the field hockey team as valuable to the school as the football or basketball team, no matter how good that field hockey team is or how bad the other two teams are. It's a joke.
    It will probably come down to the TV contracts and bowl revenue. As long as the NCAA and member institutions continue their classification of being primarily for an "educational purpose," then they can justify athletes being loosely treated as unpaid interns. But that is obviously a weak argument considering all revenue brought in is directly for entertainment to see the athletes compete. Nonetheless, if the BCS/playoff system is deemed to be in violation of the Sherman Act, then the entire non-profit status of the organization will be in question due to the "educational" nature. If the non-profit status is taken down, then the athletes would be considered employees and they'd have to be paid.

    What's interesting is that there have been opinion pieces in academia noting that the NCAA could actually consider paying athletes as part of the Federal Work Study program. By doing so, all athletes could be paid an equal stipend at Federal minimum wage standards up to the 20 hours of practice time a week, and the FWS program could cover as much as a quarter of the overall cost nationally. This would save the 'amateur' label while still recognize the time commitment involved with athletes.

    The fact is these athletes have to be full-time students and commit over 30-40 hours a week during their season to being an athlete, while being required to abide by additional standards because of team and athletic department policies. I definitely have never understood why that shouldn't justify being paid a stipend in the form of a job without being coined a 'professional.'
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  13. #190
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    A lot of places the field hockey team is worth more. Well, at least at those places field hockey costs the school less than football does. Football is expensive.
    Football is expensive, but it also brings in money.

    I just looked up Duke. Here is what their different sports profit/lose

    Code:
    Sport	         Profit/Loss
    wBasketball	($1,700,000)
    Tennis	        ($343,435)
    Swimming/Diving	($329,359)
    Golf	        ($282,366)
    Fencing	        ($272,570)
    Wrestling	($160,047)
    Baseball	($135,778)
    LaCrosse	($134,341)
    Field Hockey	($53,357)
    Rowing	        ($49,810)
    Volleyball	($9,709)
    Track	         $60,745 
    Soccer	         $147,501 
    Football 	 $3,410,000 
    mBasketball 	 $15,100,000 
    Obviously those numbers will vary by sport and school. Field Hockey is hardly the worst offender of the bunch.

    I still believe that if your sport can't support itself, then it should be cut. Duke for example could have saved $3.5M. What could they do for student life with that much extra per year?

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Try that with UMass who has no lucrative ACC TV contract. Or your local D-II school with NO TV contract and a host of schollys to cover.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Then someone needs to sue the NCAA so athletes can become employees, so just like in the real world, they can be "paid" what they are actually worth because in no world is the field hockey team as valuable to the school as the football or basketball team, no matter how good that field hockey team is or how bad the other two teams are. It's a joke.
    Good luck with that. Considering most NCAA schools don't make money on football or basketball because they don't belong to a conference with a massive tv contract, it's unlikely that courts are going to view college sports as a business and athletes as employees. Big 10 and SEC teams may make a bunch of money on those two sports, But those schools and other major conference schools constitute the vast minority of college sports programs. When you take mid-majors, FCS schools, Division II and III schools, football and basketball are drains on the school budget.

    If college players want to be paid, they're welcome to try Europe for basketball or Arena Football.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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  17. #193
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    What could they do for student life with that much extra per year?
    Field 11 varsity athletic teams???

    Duke has current endowment over $5 billion. 3 million is chump change. Well worth it in PR and the quality of life/diversity of the student body.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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  19. #194
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    Try that with UMass who has no lucrative ACC TV contract. Or your local D-II school with NO TV contract and a host of schollys to cover.
    I think his answer would be that UMass shouldn't offer sports if they can't pay for themselves.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  20. #195
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    Field 11 varsity athletic teams???

    Duke has current endowment over $5 billion. 3 million is chump change. Well worth it in PR and the quality of life/diversity of the student body.
    Duke could probably give a whole bunch of students a free ride just from the interest earned from their endowment.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.


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